I’m always amazed when people naysay nakedpastor for pointing out the abuse that goes on in the church. Many people believe that I obsessively focus on the rare cases of abuse, manipulation, control and silliness, thereby magnifying it beyond its minuscule dimensions. They believe that it is rare and that nakedpastor appeals to a very small band who’ve experienced it. They grow impatient with my constant critique of religious institution and spiritual organization, as well as what they consider the incessant whining of the walking wounded who’ve had these unusual and infrequent negative experiences. They, in the deluded spirit of misery-loves-company, insist that my critique draws the critical and forms a sob-story society who can’t let things go.
In my opinion the naysayers have their head in the sand or up their ass. What I am doing on nakedpastor is drawing attention to a pandemic. What I hope to do is in the spirit of what the gospels say Jesus did. He had compassion for the thousands of people who were lost and wandering like sheep without a shepherd. Their were religious institutions and spiritual organizations available to them, but they obviously weren’t interested in subjecting themselves to their oversight. For obvious reasons.
Sure, some have left for a variety of other reasons. But so many people have left the church because of their dissatisfaction with it. It has failed. Not by negation, but by perpetration. Many people will no longer put up with nonsense or abuse or manipulation or control of a group just because they are supposed to be a member of it. There is no more “supposed to”. So, more and more, we will see people extricate themselves from a codependent or toxic relationship for the sake of their own health. This does not always mean leaving THE church, but it may mean leaving A church or at least renegotiating their relationship to it.
I want to see people set themselves free. And I want to help them do it.
My name is David Hayward, and I am the nakedpastor. I am a graffiti artist on the walls of religion.
“Many people will no longer put up with nonsense or abuse or manipulation or control of a group just because they are supposed to be a member of it. There is no more “supposed to”. So, more and more, we will see people extricate themselves from a codependent or toxic relationship for the sake of their own health. This does not always mean leaving THE church, but it may mean leaving A church or at least renegotiating their relationship to it.”
AMEN!
I’m just becoming familiar with your work and I have a feeling we are of the same spirit… I’m going to click around and see what’s happening over here and certainly invite you to do the same. :0) Much love and light to you ~
Gail Dickert
http://www.facebook.com/homospirituality
I’m sorry if folks have said unkind things about your posts. But to be the devil’s advocate, don’t we all need a few naysayers? If everyone gushes, and flatters you, do you grow as a person? do you learn anything new? I guess I’m not a very good “yesman”, never have been, and I don’t want to be surrounded by “yesmen” myself. If you get criticism, take what you can use and let go of what you can’t.
I like your posts, but I purposely try to not be overflattering… because 1) you don’t really need it, and 2) I respect you enough to say what your posts make me think, even if it is different from the majority. You can handle it.
Again, sorry if folks have been unkind, but I have heard the cliche that if it’s not hard to do, it’s not worth doing.
A reformation of attrition. Seems like this happened once before…
I’ll say more in my response video on TFF, but I think that some of the hard feelings toward satire in general is when people encounter satire when they expect, or even prefer, partisanship or demagoguery. I think that, in short, you problem may be that you love too much of the church, rather than doing the usual thing and just loving your tiny tribal corner of it.
You seem to me like the voice of one crying in the wilderness.
i eat better than John the Baptist though. and i drink alchohol.
Last night, I was weary after yet another day of helping victims of clergy sexual abuse, and watching how the institutional church circles the wagons around abusive pastors and tries to destroy anyone who dares speak truth. I felt the Lord nudge me to read Martin Luther King’s Letter from the Birmingham Jail. I think you, too, would find inspiration in it. Here’s a few quotes to encourage you:
“There comes a time when the cup of endurance runs over, and men are no longer willing to be plunged into the abyss of despair.”
“Actually, we who engage in nonviolent direct action are not the creators of tension. We merely bring to the surface the hidden tension that is already alive. We bring it out in the open, where it can be seen and dealt with. Like a boil that can never be cured so long as it is covered up but must be opened with an its ugliness to the natural medicines of air and light, injustice must be exposed, with all the tension its exposure creates, to the light of human conscience and the air of national opinion before it can be cured.”
“Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. We are caught in an inescapable network of mutuality, tied in a single garment of destiny. Whatever affects one directly, affects all indirectly.”
Keep on speaking (and drawing!) prophetically, and know there are others doing the same.
wow jim. i read that letter many times. those quotes are powerful. thanks!
Just wondering, are you really advocating reform, or trying to justify non-Biblical actions on your own part. The great reformers of the church (Jesus Christ, Martin Luther, John Wesley) never advocated leaving the church, and in fact all attended regularly. Those outside the church will never change it (yes, changes are needed), only those that stay in and help guide her to what she was intended to be.
Please remember our allegiance to Christ includes allegiance to His bride.
your questions are so predictable doctor. i was “in” the church for almost my entire life and an ordained minister for 25 of those. while i was there i was told not to rock the boat. now that i’ve left i’m told i have no right. that’s the kind of nonsense people are no longer willing to put up with, including me.
Many people are in denial, David. Keep on keeping on.
thanks Eric. it was my visit to dallas which really encouraged me to keep on keeping on!!
As Eric said, many people are in denial and some people are just not “rock the boat” types. They have accepted the dysfunction and by their criticism, they’re essentially saying, “Look, that’s just the way things are. We’ve all accepted it, why can’t you?” But speaking for myself, I’m tired of going through life acting as if crazy is normal. I also believe not rocking the boat doesn’t help anything. If anything, it just leads to more dysfunction.
power/control is one of my favorite topics as well – i see one of Jesus’ three wilderness temptations as being about that – and of course He rejected satan’s offer of worldly power – i’ve written several blogs about power/control http://www.diospsytrek.wordpress.com – scott peck saw the desire for one human to exert control over another as the essential human evil – blessing on your work.
Thank you, David. And that’s not flattery it’s the truth. It is not mentally or spiritually healthy to stay in a dysfunctional institution that is a source of any kind of abuse. I worked for a Southern Baptist megachurch for 9 years, as a custodian. I cleaned a lot of toilets, among other things. That was one of the most mentally/spiritually abusive situations I have ever been in in my life. I was absolutely crucified about my weight, and appearance. I was teased and tormented about all kinds of things. The whole “we are right and if you’re not like us you’re going to hell” approach on top of that, combined with my own expectations of their living up to what they claimed to believe not being met, I ended up drinking over it, because if you’re angry about it, you’re wrong. I didn’t stop drinking till my health(due to a genetic condition) made it necessary. I fell for the whole right wing thing hook line and sinker, politically. When I nearly died of a dissected aorta and tried to get social services help, I was horrified at what the religious right’s pet politicians had done to the social services safety net, more than likely to position themselves as the sole arbiter of who is worthy to receive help. The whole medical ordeal is a story in itself. I am damn lucky to be on SSDI and Medicare. It took me 10 years and multiple tries to get it. I have a host of issues with these people. So I ended up walking into a Local Unitarian Universalist church, and that was 10 years ago. They not only welcomed me, and treated me like a valuable person right from the start, but they got me through two of the hardest years of my life, when I had to leave the job I had to take 10 and a half weeks post op from my second open heart surgery in less than a year,(couldn’t get disability) and try one more time to get SSDI. They had my back, for nearly two years, and did “the will of the Father” when none of the Christians gave a damn. To get any help from them means having to be preached at and told what a lousy piece of crap you are if you don’t accept Jesus. All the preachers that come on here and Jesus you half to death should take some lessons from the people I am proud to call my fellow UUs. Anyone who is concerned about everyone else’s doctrinal ducks being in a row needs to read the story of the Good Samaritan and keep reading it until they get it. Spiritual/emotional abuse in the churches IS a pandemic, and it will continue until the control freaks finally remember that Jesus said “Feed My sheep” not “Beat My sheep”. I took a beating, and I know better than to go back for more abuse. I will not mentally, spiritually or PHYSICALLY survive. I’m far from being alone, and I’m glad you wrote this today. It’s frustrating as hell, and sometimes you just need to sound off. I have learned to rock the boat, speak up, sound off…and I haven’t had to drink over it for 14 years now….
I’ve attended many churches (many denominations and/or types) in my life and have seen spiritual abuse and manipulation in EVERY single one of them. My worst jobs have been related to churches. However, I have met my very best friends in life through our mutual association to churches, and most of them still attend a church regularly. I just can’t. When I try to go to church now, I find myself cringing at the rampant manipulation. I see the obvious hurt in people’s faces and eyes as they are talked down to or preached at or told what to do and not do, how to live or die, with whom they can associate and whom they must avoid, how to dress and when it is all right to undress, what they can or can’t eat or drink, whom they can marry or date and from whom they must cut ties, and on and on and on. And I see how it cripples a reasonable person’s ability to think for themselves and to make decisions without the stamp of approval from some pastor, or leader or “the group.”
Of course, none of us have the mind of God, but my own suspicion is that the “church” as we know it today might never have been intended to be a static, eternal thing. The manner or way in which God has been present in worship has NEVER been a static, eternal thing. God started with a small party in a garden, moved on toward some pow-wows at alters in the desert, then moved into a moveable tabernacle (kind of like an Old Testament RV), then reigned in a temple (especially the God-cave of the Holy of Holies, then disappeared while giving the Jews the silent treatment for some 400 years, then came back to the temple, then traveled the highways and byways with anyone who wanted to join the fun and whooped it up with society’s outcasts and wedding attenders, then moved on to some public forums, then into some clandestine home groups and a few jail cells, and eventually made his way into traditional church as we now know it. Why wouldn’t God decide to relate to us in a new way yet again?
If Scripture is any indicator, we should expect that “church” may evolve into something else. In the last days the Spirit does not need a “teacher” or “intercessor” to reach the hearts of men and women. The Spirit will speak directly through dreams, visions and whispers if people will just slow down and listen. (Acts 2:17; I John 2:26-27)
And a question for the good Dr. if he will be so kind to reply: Which “church” did Jesus attend?
nakedpastor
October 29, 2011 | 5:11 pm
your questions are so predictable doctor. i was “in” the church for almost my entire life and an ordained minister for 25 of those. while i was there i was told not to rock the boat. now that i’ve left i’m told i have no right. that’s the kind of nonsense people are no longer willing to put up with, including me.
——No David, you gave up; you quit. You have no voice within the problem to be of help. That is the price you pay for self-protection.
The way Luther’s life progressed has often been a reminder to me as well. He stayed till he was kicked out.
Wesley’s example is more akin to where I’m at. He never left the Anglican church, but by the end he was ‘in’ but not ‘of’ the Anglicans. Although there was no formal separation (except in America) John was effectively in Methodist ‘churches’ that bore little more than a legal relationship with the Anglican church.
What I see NP as doing is akin to the Wesley direction, and certainly Christlike. Christ’s ‘church’ had a bias to the marginalised. Wesley took church from the chapels into the fields for just that reason. Most of what is recorded about Christ’s ‘church’ is about parties with tax collectors, women, military occupiers, et al, who were effectively excluded from the synagogues.
Well, in today’s synagogue, the tax collectors are those who are told that their lifestyle is incompatible with the church, the women are those who are excluded from participation because of their sexuality, the military occupiers are those who have seen and done horrible things in the name of their beliefs.
The established churches are, by and large, sitting in their holy huddles thinking to themselves, ‘If only they would come to use so we can ‘fix’ them and they could be lucky, like us.’
Jesus went to THEM, and I don’t see recorded anywhere that he said to them, ‘your sins are forgiving, now go and make sure you get yourself into a good synagogue.’
Wesley went into the fields to preach to a group who had no interest in, and/or had been victims of the abuses of established church, which is what I see NP doing (and what I hope I do too). This is the church, the ecclesia</i), the gathered, of the maginalised.
Allegiance to Christ means allegiance to his bride? What greater love could someone have for this moribund bride than to tell her she's acting like a silly old cow and to wake up to herself, and then to serve her by doing her chores for her while she seems incapable to do them herself?
Quite the conversation going on here!
I found this quote the other day.
“Most people don’t see things as they ARE, they see things as THEY are” Richard Rohr.
What is the Church? Umm wherever two or three gather together. Its not the organisation, the denomination or the creed. Its the relationship. I love Church, its great to get together with a couple of mates once a week and grow in community with them. Usually over a coffee and always with food. Its a place we can see each other as WE ARE, vulnerable (naked ??) and needing each other to see beyond where we are.
Quite Trinitarian isn’t it??
Great post NP.
Dr. Mansfield, is the bride only regular church attenders? Jesus attended Church regularly? And would you advocate a woman staying in an abusive relationship? Maybe you haven’t experienced abuse, manipulation, and over authoritative leadership from the pulpit, but many have. It is time to awaken sir and begin to bat an eye at what is happening.
For years I have been trying to let you know that there is a better way. The church I attend has a wide variety of people. With all sorts of different political and ideological viewpoints.
Many of them would not spend any time together, but they are drawn together to worship Christ and to hear the truth about themselves. That they are ALL sinners (including the pastor)…but that someone loves and fogives them anyway.
This, I believe, is how the church ought be.
No self-righteous spirituality projects. No climbing over the next guy to get ahead. Just the Word and the Sacraments. The forgiveness of sins for the ungodly.
People wounded by the church ought check it ought.
There is real healing in a church focused on Christ and what He has done, instead of what YOU ought be doing.
Yellow Card
THE TROLL came to bout, unbidden,
with intent and sharp rapier not hidden.
He lunged and invited,
surely self-delighted,
despite sportsmanship well overridden.
As someone who has worked with and around a variety of churches from 75 to 3000+ people over the last 10 years in several parts of the country, I can attest that many of the issues you presented in the cartoons are definitely not rare.
I currently work full time for a large church that is recovering from the loss (resignation, not termination) of a senior pastor who’s marriage completely crumbled, and for 7 years took out the majority of his marital issues on the staff that he was supposed to mentor. His wife worked at the church too, and the two of them (in hindsight) were the most dysfunctional, manipulative couple I’ve EVER encountered in my short 30 years.
I am also heavily involved in a large group of technical leaders (over 400 who are full time at churches, and over 1400 people when you include the volunteer/part-timers) from all over the country/world, all from extremely diverse denominational/religious backgrounds. We keep a closed community where we can vent to one another and encourage each other when life at “work” gets crazy. I can again assure you that NP is spot on in most cases, and that what he’s experienced over his lifetime is (unfortunately) closer to the norm than the exception.
That being said, the biblical narrative and themes of God using broken people to change lives and impact the world still holds true today. I think it’s time that we, as the body of Christ, turn the mirror on ourselves and take a hard long look at how we are approaching “ministry”. If everything we do from the first awakening breath of our day until we close our eyes at night doesn’t reek of love; if our theology, doctrine, missional statements and creeds are born out of a need to “convert” rather than a deep and innate need to love those around us (aka, our neighbors), than all we have become is an annoyance and a disgrace to the communities around us, (clanging cymbals, anyone?) no better than the Pharisees and the “religious right” of Jesus’ day.
I, for one, am thankful for David’s gift; for attempting to gracefully, humorously, and often painfully uncover the dirt in the closet so we, as the church, can reach for the broom and start meaningfully engaging a world that is desperately in need of the love and compassion of Christ.
fishon: that’s just about the cruelest thing anyone has said to me. but i’ve heard it before. you have no f-ing idea what you’re talking about!
Amazonfeet- proud of you.
David- keep going.
We all have the mind of G*d, and G*D beauty.
And af- I hear dome great things about the UUs too, they’re very welcoming to witches. Which is great.
Sarah: (((((((HUGS)))))))
David: (((((((HUGS)))))))
Prophets have never been popular. Keep going David.
And for those who think the Naked Pastor is full of shit, try to remember:
Ever since the first Christmas morning it has been easier to find Jesus in places that smell more like manure than incense.
UMM. I think i missed something here. Is fishon now THE TROLL?
ttm
October 29, 2011 | 9:34 pm
Yellow Card
———Yellow Card for opinion?
Johnfom
October 29, 2011 | 10:40 pm
UMM. I think i missed something here. Is fishon now THE TROLL?
——I was dubbed that by others.
David,
You say cruel, but where am I wrong? You gave up on the organized church. Why? In your own words:::”It has failed.” You quit as a Pastor. Why? In your own words:::”It has failed.”
What church do you have a voice in to help with problems? And you have admitted many time that you did it for self-protection of you mind and spirit YOU-[So, more and more, we will see people extricate themselves from a codependent or toxic relationship for the sake of their own health.].
And you have written about the price and agonies of your decision.
No, David, you have left THE church and have become lone ranger. You can slice it and dice it anyway you please. And whether you like it or not, Jesus’ churches were organized. And they became a mess not to many years after he left this earth. There are pastors, evangleist, and teachers to prepare God’s people for works of service. That hasn’t changed. There were deacons and elders and I see no where in scripture that that has changed. Jesus very plainly warned churches in the book of Revelation–he did not warn lone rangers–there were no lone rangers in Christ’s church.
Yes, men can and do make Jesus’ church messy and ugly, but that does not suppose that we get to go out on our own and play pretend pastor and church.
Your battle, your problems, your agonies, with the leaders-organization of the church pale in comparison with what those apostles put up with. They pale in comparison to the congregations of the Ted Haggards, the Jimmy boys, the Catholics that have had to endure pedophile priests; I could go on and on. But millions have endured, fought on–never, never giving in because of the failures of others. You have allowed the failure of others to determine your destiny.
I take no pleasure in telling you what I believe. And if you want to characterize it as cruel, then I have to live with that. That is the price I pay for my decision to say what I think, just as you pay the price for what you say and your decisions. But don’t blame it on others–your the one who left the battle going on within the organized church, and when you leave the battle, you have no part in the war. You have lost your voice and the ear of the Church of Jesus Christ. That may sound cruel, but is it not the truth? If so, tell me, what organized church gives you an ear now? What leadership hears your council?
Lastly, you say:::I want to see people set themselves free. And I want to help them do it.
—–Free from what, really, David. And how do you help them other than to let them know that there is someone out there that is a lone ranger too?
No, you gripe and complain relentlessly about the Lord’s church, its leadership, but you are not offering any positive help to those who have really been hurt by an individual church or leader[s]. Your lone instruction is more complaining. You do not help lead people to the great and wonderful Churches of Jesus Christ–you encourage them to continue in their agony, and in most cases, whinning.
I challenge you to go back through your last couple of years worth of blogs, and show yourself where you spend QUALITY time in addressing hurts and pains. Not just agreeing how the church and its leaders have abused someone, but giving Godly advice on how to overcome their pains and suffering. It is one thing to say, “Yea, yea, I feel your pain. I know what you speak. I have been abused too.” It is quite another to “Pastor” the hurting. I do not see it happening on your blog.
You say:::And I want to help them….Then do it instead of just agreeing that they are hurt.
@THE TROLL As long as you’re comfortable with it mate
How would you like to be addressed now that you’ve claimed the abusive term and made it your own?
As a counter opinion, (and please don’t take the analogy too far) the best commentators and coaches are former players. No longer an active part of the team, but still with a love for the players and the club. They have as much of a voice, perhaps more of a voice, after leaving.
Or, to put it another way, a voice from within the water is usually of less help to a drowning man than a voice from the boat.
That’s the benefit of self-preservation.
To david, thanks very much for this post, and for your blog; you are one of the few who validate the pain and struggles of people who have been hurt by church, and this points the path towards healing (as opposed to those who deny that the church can do any wrong, and perpetually attempt to silence the afflicted).
I truly hate it when people bring up that “love me, love my bride!” attitude regarding someone who has left a church….it assumes that every church circumstance is pure and divine, even the toxic ones….not all churches that freely employ the name “Jesus” are true Brides of the King. One of the biggest thoughts I’ve had to wrestle with regarding my toxic church experience is why God tolerates deceitful, hurtful “churches”….if an exceedingly dear and respected friend of mine’s wife was a fearful, obnoxious, insecure, lying witch who slandered people behind their backs and destroyed their reputations, I would be hard-pressed to spend any more time with my friend, certainly not in the company of his wife….I would tell him about her behavior, and his reaction would tell me whether or not our relationship would continue….if he said, “To love me, you must love my wife,” then I would have to walk away. I have not done that with Christ, but I’ve gotten close.
I find that people who are fiercest in their defense of “church” are often those who simply cannot handle the idea that (1) their church can do any wrong, and (2) they themselves were wrong in their belief that the church can do no wrong. Facing those two issues would simply crumble their ego and belief.
I am in a place right now where the churches are so screwed up that I cannot participate in them (having my reputation smeared by the toxic church does not help), but I maintain hope that Christ will lead me to his true followers if I keep looking, in church or out.
Thanks again for what you do here.
but you are not offering any positive help to those who have really been hurt by an individual church or leader[s].
This sir, is a lie.
I am 62 and have been a pastor forever. The reality is that NP understates what actually goes on in the church. I no longer try to defend it to the vast numbers who have had enough. Believe me, they are legion. Well, that may be an unfortunate reference, but you know what I mean. I didn’t make their decision to leave but I can’t even begin to try to convert them to returning. Churches do need order and boundaries, like any family. But when leaders feel those boundaries threatened, the atom bombs begin to drop. It’s a dreadful thing to see. And if someone wants to professionally bring this stuff to the surface, like NP does, I have no problem. What sounds like despair to church going people sounds like hope to those on the outside licking their wounds.
You’re selling your fine art, got a nakedpub going, a Sophie series on the Soul’s voyage, provoking a massive back & forth among theists and atheists, church loyalists and lapsed, validated the victims and wounded: the naysaying-to-yea-saying ratios are high in your favor.
I’m jealous.
I’m getting no interest at all in promoting The First Church of the Crippled and Lame Shall Enter First (and our poverty we have with us all ways). I admit it. Granted it is exclusive. No goodies need apply. Oh sure: they can apply but they wouldn’t feel comfortable.
Regarding the Freedom Agenda (setting people free etc.) No Whine is Released Before it’s Time.
fishon (who sometimes acts like a troll): you and i think very differently. your accusation against me comes across to me as a very narrow point of view.
I think the argument that you (NP) cannot change the church from the outside is a legitimate one, albeit one most of those leaving comments might not agree with. However, even if we accept that premise, we overlook the daily and significant encouragement those still on the inside get from NP. So, does this encouragement and guidance count as affecting change in the church? I would say an emphatic YES.
Bill Scarrott, after hurting myself laughing over your post about finding Jesus in places that smell like manure, it occurred to me that after the wise men showed up, there was incense as well.
A ‘shift’ definitely seems to be emerging within Western Christianity – as a result a polarization also seems to be taking place within the multitudes who claim Yeshua as their private property.
The challenge for those of us who’ve left Christendom to seek a more free flowing spirituality is to not enter the ‘religious rivalry spiral’ but to lovingly disengage like our teacher Yeshua.
I’ve been thinking about your post quite a bit, and I have thought about my comment. When I first started to follow your posts, I posted on your wall that I liked how you created conversation. Lately, it has bothered me that it doesn’t seem to be conversation. When someone disagrees, your followers make a point of proving them wrong. And I don’t see anyone asking why they disagree, or where their thoughts come from… Isn’t this what made you leave the church? the inability to question?
My favorite cartoons of yours are the ones that praise the question mark, I believe we should question everything, the church, the government, the school system, science… even naked pastor? I don’t know anymore… I didn’t mean to sound critical, and after much thought, I know that I can only be responsible for my own actions. So when I see someone disagree, it must be up to me to ask why someone has a different view, and up to me to encourage questions, and try to see their side. If I denounce those who don’t agree with me, then I’m just like the church that you left… Take care, naked pastor…
@Jennifer
That’s one of the things I like about NP too, the often robust conversation. That’s why I like seeing fishon around. He is confidently contrary to the majority in this forum, but still sticks around and continues to comment over and over again, year after year. Same with Steve Martin. And Sam’s comments just seem a whole different class of weird to me, but there’s some good stuff in there.
I’ve also been a bit wary of the direction the conversations have gone lately. So much more vitriol than I remember form the last few years. So many more ad homenim attacks. Or so it seems. But I’m looking forward to seeing how this virtual (but not fake) community works it out. I hope that we do work it out. This has been a good community to be a part of for the last few years and it has helped me to stay in the church (although I did take a year out to explore the post-churched phenomenon), even to pursue a paid ministry.
@David,
I never saw you as giving up, just moving up. I always operated under the assumption that THIS was your church and we were your community.
@Jennifer F Moore,
I think what you are getting at is the tendency of some online groups or communities to become “echo chambers”. While that’s always a real possibility, it’s nice for folks that are like minded to get together to share common experiences or help one another along a not-so-clear path to personal fulfillment.
While I fully support (and practice) questioning as a way to learn about the universe around us, questioning for the sake of questioning can sometimes derail the process and bog us down needlessly when certain things have already been fully established or accepted. Open-minded vs empty headed is what I’m getting at, I guess.
Also, there are those individuals that are intent on disruption and domination, not dialogue. While we rely on each other to do a little self-policing, sometimes it’s inevitable that others will step in to point out another commenter’s nuttbaggery or aggression.
Here’s an article I just read that I think ties in well with Jennifer’s point about the level of disagreement on this blog. It’s entitled Fear Leads to Anger: Unpacking Theological Belligerence http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.patheos.com%2Fblogs%2Fpeterenns%2F2011%2F10%2Ffear-leads-to-anger-unpacking-theological-belligerence%2F&h=JAQE9OcHdAQFxI7B1DJYGaivbYWiAshGZHMPQ5UEy9qX05w
i’m thinkin of taking a vacation to Patmos ………… can ya make me a vacation T-shirt? ideas?
(just feeding the fire)
fishon: i would like to add that judgement means passing sentence too soon. you say i quit, etc. gave up. but you don’t know the end of my story. would you say Abraham quit by leaving Ur? Moses by leaving Egypt? Jesus by leaving the towns? Paul by leaving the synagogue? Luther by leaving the RC? I’m still in the game, even though you believe I disqualified myself. Your narrow view seems to think that you behind the pulpit with folks in the pews is the real game and I threw in the towel on that. Nope.
Johnfom
October 30, 2011 | 1:52 am
@THE TROLL As long as you’re comfortable with it mate How would you like to be addressed now that you’ve claimed the abusive term and made it your own?
——No, not happy with it, but not put off by it either. But I am really “fishon.’
As a counter opinion, (and please don’t take the analogy too far) the best commentators and coaches are former players. No longer an active part of the team, but still with a love for the players and the club. They have as much of a voice, perhaps more of a voice, after leaving.
———I know you said not to take the analogy too far, and I won’t. However, I didn’t see Washingon, Manager of the Rangers taking the voice of advice from 2x World Series Champ,Tim Mccarver during the series. I sure would like you to give some examples of former coaches and players who are NOT a part of a particular sports organization who have much of a voice or impact. Don’t give me someone like Nolan Ryan having a voice with the rangers–he is their president. I am thinking of my all-time favorite player, Willie Mays, and really don’t think he has much pull with the Giants.