As a pastor I would go through some very dark times. Just like Pastor Ron here.
How much of our theology supports a pessimistic, hopeless, depressed and nihilistic perspective? How much of our theology is actually spiritual suicide dressed up in bible quotes and word play and fanciful language? How much of our theology could have been written by the Destroyer?
See you tomorrow. I hope. (wink wink nod nod)
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I know of a person who had cancer and refused all medical treatment based on her understanding of scripture. She was convinced that God would heal her. She died. Is this also a form of “theologically assisted suicide?” She didn’t have to die, but based on a poor understanding of scripture, from well intentioned, but poorly trained people, she did. Is this not assisted suicide also?
ya steve. that’s a sad one.
As a former pastor, I can relate. As I heard someone say recently, I had to leave the church “to preserve my faith.” How ironic.
It’s all just a bunch of mumbo jumbo, anyway.
What’s important is to have FUN!
The Bible? What a joke…you can’t believe what’s in that book! We KNOW BETTER!
Just have FUN!
It’s not a matter of we know better. It’s a matter of questioning. For me, anyway.
What’s left to do with your mind as a Christian? You go to church week after week and hear the same stuff over and over and over. I used to feel my Sunday morning time would be better spent reading a book. I could learn something that way.
I think many go for the socializing. I like that also, to a point. But the sermon was always the most important to me. But sitting there listening with no way to interact gets frustrating.
I’m just speaking of my own experiences and how they made me feel. Maybe it’s all just evidence that I wasn’t a real Christian. Lord knows, I sure tried to be. Maybe to the real Christians, it’s not boring, they never tire of hearing it all, they always just accept what’s said and go on. Probably makes them quite happy. It didn’t work that way for me.
I just want to say that I feel sorry for the pastor in this kind of situation. To have to come up with something every Sunday because people want to hear something from the Bible. Must get pretty dreary and non-stimulating mentally.
Lynn, it does indeed get dreary and depressing. Even when I was passionate in my faith and ministry there were times when it was incredibly taxing to preach a “fresh word” every Sunday. Now that my heart’s not in it, it’s almost unbearable. I really have nothing to say but must say it anyway (for a little while longer anyway).
Peter
Peter,
Thanks for being open with your thots. To me, it would be like any job-in a way-where you’re miserable but must stick it out a little while due to practical considerations. Knowing that it will end soon would help a lot, I think.
At least that’s the way it worked for me. I had a job for about 5 years and enjoyed it for most of that time. But about the last six months, I was more and more miserable and realized that it was “killing” me slowly. Once I finally decided one day that I was actually, truly going to quit, I felt so relieved. It felt so good to make a decision and take control of my life. Because I had been sitting there every day and thinking, wow, this is my one and only life I’m giving these people, and I truly hate it.
So I did quit. My supervisor wanted me to stay about a month more and work less and less hours as I went along. I agreed to that. I counted down the days! But I was looking forward to my next adventure in my life. It felt so refreshing to me.
Anyway, I wish you the best. And thanks again for sharing your humanity with us.
I currently live in a culture I believe to be rife with this outlook.
Whatever you do, don’t look like you enjoy what you do, people will think you’re lazy, or on drugs or something. It seems to me that many over here believe that if one is not suffering in some way then they aren’t trying hard enough, if something isn’t hurting you then it’s not worth doing. I don’t know if it’s an attempt to feel worthy of the state-assisted suicide of Jesus or something else.
In that sort of life, of course people will long for the end, a glorious release and a ‘well done good and faithful servant’.
But, hey, we have a respected role model for this. Paul actually ‘longed for the day’ of his release from this life.
BTW, this reminded me, again, of one of my favourite responses to WWJD:
Well, it seems to me that what Jesus actually did was go around really annoying the religious leadership so much that they wanted, and actually arranged, his death.
I’m sure Jesus knew how it was going to end up. If we are to be ‘Christ-like’ then it’s not too much of a stretch to see a passively suicidal undercurrent as being a part of a coherent Christology.
Lynn have you tried a liturgical type of worship? I find it much more interactive than the just sit there in the pew doing pretty much nothing other than listening except to stand to sing a hymn or two style I grew up with.
The Episcopal Church welcomes you
NP, What’s really sad is when you have done this for 35 years and it’s all you know and all you have been educated to do. Damn I hate to have had my eyes opened this late in life.
is this your experience John T?
Wow…just wow. Thats exactly the way I feel. Exactly.
Only try doing it as a missionary. It’s not necessarily harder, just very different and unbelievably difficult. Its nice to know I’m not the only one in the world feeling like this.
thanks.
sure james. anytime. hope you have someone to talk with about this stuff. important.
I hate the can’t wait to die and get to heaven mind set. I mean if one was in prison with no hope of getting out ( in a place like China or North Korea or Cuba ) or sick with some horrible disease that you couldn’t even get pain relief for, then yes, I can see why one might yearn for it all to be over. I’ve had moments when I’ve been hours in the bathroom in the middle of the night throwing up and other things, when I honestly wouldn’t have minded God taking me out of here, but for most Christians in my part of the world (Canada) it isn’t that bad.
I’m so relieved that the end of the world thing was all a big fake ( most of us knew that didn’t we? )because I have so much more to do here. Well, I’m still holding my breath because where I live,the rapture hasn’t kicked in yet.
Yes, David, theologically assisted suicide is what is preached in so many churches and it sucks!
I think some of this relates to some of the things Rob Bell said in “Love Wins.” While I do not agree with everything he said, his idea that our faith is not just an escape mechanism, but is meant for living, does make sense. Doing church, especially. Church isn’t supposed to be an hour and a half presentation on Sunday mornings. Church is us! Its supposed to be alive! Unfortunately, we have made it into this follow the format/sit in the pew and get entertained program. (Has anyone other than me realized this? Our usual protestant worship service is arranged exactly like one of the old variety shows from TV, like Ed Sullivan?)
I’ve been where you guys are. I know exactly how it is. After going through my struggles, my attitude toward church and ministry changed. Basically, I decided I am going to do what *I* think is right and screw the congregation and everyone else. This isn’t ego, its experience. The congregation of any given church is for the most part unconverted and immature. They have no clue, so why should I listen to them? They do not know what they want or need, so I am not about to give in to them.
This same thing goes for denominational superiors, theologians, fellow preachers, whoever. I know what I know. I know what is in the Bible, and I know that I have had a personal experience with the living God. This doesn’t mean I am blindly fundamentalist, because they are out to lunch too. What it means is that I will rely on myself. If I have to rely on anyone else besides myself, I will fall into despair and confusion. I will work out my own faith.
Call that religious self-esteem. If we know the truth, and the truth sets us free, then we shouldn’t worry about other people’s opinions.
I’m not trying to make you guys having problems feel bad. I fully understand, and have been there. I was suffering through an abusive marriage and post traumatic stress disorder while working in a church and having to put on the “happy face” every time we met. Getting divorced and giving up that position was almost a relief because I could just be myself for once. You’ve actually got my support. I know how impossible it is to be able to vent your true feelings to anyone without your church or other Christians thinking you are defective. You’ve got my non-judgmental ear though.
Miss J,
The more interactive service does sound nice. Right now my husband and I are attending a Universalist Unitarian church. Never thot I’d do such in a million years. But we’re both finding it to be every enjoyable. It’s pretty much the opposite of other churches I’ve been in.
And maybe part of it is that I’m older now and more secure in being who I am vs. studying the pastor and his family or watching others to see how I’m supposed to do life. I’m just sad sometimes thinking of all I put myself thru before getting to this point.
@Steve Martin It’s not a ‘fun’ versus ‘misery’ dichotomy.
People have fun at my churh, they get on some real highs, but it’s still part fake, part delusion, part Emperor’s New Clothes.
Pastor Ron is not complaining about not having fun, but about things being unreal.
We have fun, too. But we realize that there is MORE to life than just fun.
Maybe not.
If we believe what the Bible says, maybe there is more to it than just our wants and desires.
The Bible? HaHaHaHaha!!
Gosh, nakedpastor, I wish you had a “like” button, or even a “love this!” button.
It’s fascinating how this resonates with so many of us, and yet, how many of have felt like this is on the very long list of things they’re not supposed to talk about. Why the taboo? It’s sad.
MLE: I know. I DID talk about it, which is why I eventually had to leave the ministry. People don’t want to hear it.
God is bigger than our doubts, our fears. He can handle them all, but He can also get rid of them all if we want Him to. The Bible is alive, but we don’t know that if we don’t really study it. It isn’t dry whatsoever. It is full of treasures, but you have to find them for yourself.
Well David, I want to hear it and the title is stuck in my mind and I relate to it quite a lot as I have been a home group leader and coming up with messages for that on a weekly basis is a similar thing but on a different level and not as long as a sermon. I also distinctly remember getting extremely drained trying to come up with new skits for puppets and in drama presentations in Sunday school and in Church it became a real pain in the backside trying to manage both especially as Sunday School was each Sunday.
When I did this on such a regular basis cracks showed up in what I believed and the questions kicked in and before long I didnt believe some of the stuff I was saying/performing. So while I wasnt a minister coming up with a sermon every week I do relate on the level where I was at and it was being in that position of leadership that made me see that its not all that its cracked up to be – its hard and it tests what you believe in – is it real? What do you do when you discover it isnt real? How do you get the “real” back? People can be really well insulated against things that will not be in accordance with what they want to hear. The filters are on and they are often subtle to the point that the wearers dont realise they have them on. So its a battle and we grow battle weary.
And you want to go back into the fray? (in reference to starting a church again)
Ant, I can understand why David would want to go back. For some of us, there is something inside us that says “keep on ministering” in spite of the evil done to us by churches, people or organised whatever. I know eventually I will go back into organised church ministry in some way (whether in the traditional sense, or something I create on my own) because that is what God created me for. The Bible says something to the effect that the gifts and callings of God are without repentance. That’s HIS repentance, not ours. I’ve been called by God to do this, so it does not matter what a church or denomination or group of people want. My only challenge is to learn how to make it happen! I support David 150%.
Jon, I can certainly understand many reasons why David would want to go back and I have thought of going back too but I only get so far with that – like what David said there are some of us who have been quite wounded by the church to the point of no return. I want to look after myself which means not putting myself in a position whereby I can be abused again. I also have seen others abused and I dont want to see that happen again. I am tired of playing church – its a meaningless game for me – especially when I have forged meaningful relationships without the church and for me that is satisfying and spiritual. I am enjoying an interaction with David now whereby he gives me things to think about and I simply like to return the favour, it does not mean that I do not support him – on the contrary I can see he is a deeply thinking man and I have the utmost respect for him in this regard – I am sure that he will make an informed choice to the best of his ability in regards to returning to the ministry. If he becomes a pastor and grows a church again then thats his choice and his life which I will respect and support him in that calling. If I lived in the area I might be tempted to come along cos he is the kind of guy I’d like to have as my pastor. There are many times I have considered the ministry and still do from time to time. Its good to hear these things from David as it makes me think about that more clearly which is very helpful.
i’ll be writing more about “going back” soon. maybe later today. after the last post on it the other day that you are referring to, i just couldn’t believe the reaction. serious second thoughts. anyway, thanks for your comments. whatever i do it won’t look like “church”.