(Buy the original of this cartoon. Just contact me. Or buy a print.)
Some say things are improving for women in ministry. I’ve met one or two. I know some online. It will persist as long as men hold the power and make the decisions concerning this issue. The problem isn’t “when will the power-brokers relax the rules?“. The problem is “who are the power-brokers?“. The argument around the boardroom table shouldn’t be, “Should we allow women in ministry?” but “Let’s relinquish our hold on the power and share it equally with women.”
I already have a book of cartoons. For just $9, order “Nakedpastor101: Cartoons by David Hayward“, from amazon.com, amazon.ca, amazon.de.
My name is David Hayward, and I am the nakedpastor. I am a graffiti artist on the walls of religion.
you never fail to make me smile….. statements like these take some balls!
Our denomination has women pastors.
I have to say that I am not too crazy about it.
Not that there are a few good ones who are Christ centered, gospel centered.
But the majority of them are political, left wing Democrat Party at prayer types. I think this is so because (painting with a broad brush here) they are more emotional than men and have greater instincts to take care of people.
Yes, Virginia, women ARE different than men.
Unless you are a grad student, and your brain has been twisted by the left wing twaddle of the university.
The key to increasing the number of women in the ministry is to erase the image of either craziness or mediocrity established by Schuller’s daughter, Aimee Semple McPherson, Marilyn Hickey, etc. That’s how the general public views women minister and God help us!
Our local “ministerial alliance” hosted a National Day of Prayer service on our courthouse lawn last week. Six men led prayer on a variety of subjects. A woman played the piano. Some people were offended by my comments that apparently only men knew how/were allowed to pray here in “red-neck land”.
It’s obvious who the “power brokers” are here in my local faith community and obvious they have no intention of relinquishing any hold.
Some things ARE improving. Some things are definitely not. And sometimes the answer lies in working to redefine what we mean by “ministry”…I believe that’s where the broader brush strokes should land.
This is one of those “white elephants” in the room. I look forward to the day when “there is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female…”
grace and peace…
While I have championed the cause of women in ministry through the years, I’ve run across an inordinate number of women pastors whose demeanor was less than appealing (see Sister Marie’s comment above). But, are there not male ministers who also are repugnant? Seems like they are given a “by”. At least the whole of male ministers is not judged by the manner/behavior/attitude of a few, as it seems women ministers are. I will say, too, that in very recent months/years I have encountered some delightful women who I would be blessed to have as my pastor. Is it because it is becoming less necessary to be pushy and obnoxious to enter “the ministry” for a woman? I hope so. I hope things truly are changing and “plumbing” will no longer be the standard for determining fitness for ministry.
@Steve
“Yes, Virginia, women ARE different than men.
Unless you are a grad student, and your brain has been twisted by the left wing twaddle of the university.”
So, if I read you correctly, what you’re really saying is that Women are different from uneducated men…
Sorry, I couldn’t resist… Well, that’s not true, I could have resisted, but what would be the fun in that…
By the way, on a more serious note, I would think “greater instincts to take care of people” would be a huge asset in being a pastor.
I guess I now tend to look at this argument differently than I used to in my former life as a pastor. For me it is now no longer a question of male vs female “ministers,” but rather what constitutes real ministry as opposed to simply another religious exercise. The gender issue has become totally irrelevant to me in my current walk with the Lord.
Thanks for another thought-provoking cartoon.
Or for that matter, any other form of “ministry” which is really all about caring for people in one form or another…
David dear, I hate to correct your lovely artwork but men who ban women from ministry don’t have any balls.
My wife has been a pastor as long as I have. In the United Church of Canada, issues of gender and of orientation are generally less important than are commitment, passion, and ability to serve. Denominations that do not treat women with equal respect and dignity are often also missing the freedom and joy of Jesus’ message in other ways!
“For thy Maker is thine husband; the LORD of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called.”
It seems to me, the picture of a male leading the congregation is the best representation of God to man. The female can represent man to God, but I have doubts about the former representation. I think this is why we see most scripture designating men as the leader of the congregation.
“A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife”
@Darrow
In general, Canada is pretty progressive when it comes to women in ministry, some provinces and denominations more than others. I’m originally from Newfoundland and a Pentecostal background where women in minisitry was never much of an issue. Some would credit this to the fact that Pentecostalism was originally brought to Newfoundland by a woman. In any event, I was suprised when the church I was attending here in Ontario held a discussion on women in ministry as I sort grew up without the sort of restraints that I later learned were in place in some denominations within Canada and in far more within the US.
@Daniel
You are aware that there is also female imagery of God in the bible and that Genesis does tell us that God created male and female in his image. To suggest that women cannot reflect the image of God does great violence to the scriptures.
Also, if you are going to suggest that the patriarchal system that was so prevelant in biblical times must be enforced for all times then you should show a little consistency and insist that slavery is still acceptable as well. Or you could choose instead to believe that in Christ we are all equal, male and female, Jew and Greek, slave and free….
Cindy,
“To suggest that women cannot reflect the image of God does great violence to the scriptures.”
You are assuming too much here. I said males were a better representation of the relationship of God to man. This has nothing to do with reflecting the image of God we were all created with.
Could you point out some verses that give female imagery for God?
One more question: Do you honestly think that God wanted slavery and that he meant for the Israelites to have slaves?
Quoting scripture to support an argument is always a double-sided proposition. It appears as a simplistic statement in the authority of scripture, but is really masking a deep authority issue, such as by what authority do we hold sacred the hand picked passages we choose to uplift (versus the ones we choose to back burner), thus making the authority of scripture (or any sacred text) a circular problem at best. Who decides what’s authoritative? This is the reformation question. And to say “all of it” is just to stick one’s head in the sand at very basic literary, historical, social, and text critical issues before you even get to theology.
Many Christians have faith in Jesus, not faith with Jesus and I’ve always thought the point of Jesus and his ministry and teaching was pointing to a God that could never quite be pinned downed (hence the parables and analogies and such). Most Christianity today is, in my opinion, not a religion that Jesus preached, but a religion made up about Jesus by various authorities, and as the cartoon points out, some still have a lot of issues with gender, sexism, sexuality, power and control.
Giggy said it right, “there’s neither jew nor greek, slave nor free, male nor female.”
God can talk through anyone or anything for that matter (remember the donkey who spoke in the OT and even Jesus said the rocks would cry out if the children didn’t).
Male and females are different. They are different from the womb. But God made us all in His image, “Male and Female He created them.”
There are some ways He can speak through a woman He cannot speak through a man. Yes, there are some kooky female pastors but the same is said for male pastors. Why do we judge a group by one “bad” one instead of judging them all by a “good” one if there is to be any judging at all? There shouldn’t be though.
Can nobody tell the ‘men’ that Spirit is a feminine noun in Hebrew as is Wisdom in Proverbs.
I’ve never heard that preached on in any church I’ve attended.
Love the comment Becky!
I don’t think I’m assuming too much Daniel. To suggest a woman cannot represent the relationship of God to man and to suggest that a woman cannot bear God’s image to the extent that a man can are one and the same to me. I do not see a distinction there.
I’m at work at the moment and don’t have time to go searching for specific feminine imagery at the moment, but to get an idea of where I’m coming from you can read a short blog post I made on the subject last year here: http://cindymurphythinkingoutloud.blogspot.com/2010/05/feminine-god-in-christianity.html We can discuss that more later if you’d like.
As to the question you posed about me believing that God wanted slavery, no I most certainly do not believe that. But my not believing that is consistent with my overall approach to scripture. Your not believing that on the other hand is not. That was my point. I do not believe that God wanted the Israelites to have slaves, but I also must admit that there are select instructions attributed to God in scripture that would strongly suggest otherwise. I also don’t believe that God wanted only men to be in positions of authority within the church, but I also must admit that there are select instructions attributed to God (or at least believed to be inspired by God) in scripture that strongly suggest otherwise. Do you see the parallel here?
As for what I believe personally, there are many things attributed to God in scripture that I do not believe to be a fair and direct expression of His will. For example, I do not for one minute believe that God actually wanted the Israelites to slaughter entire races, capture and enslave people, rape women, etc, but that doesn’t mean that I can deny that these things exist and are attributed to God in the bible. I have been re-evaluating my understanding of scripture on an ongoing basis and I currently lean more to the idea that the bible more accurately portrays our understanding of God and what he wanted at different points than it does portray exactly what he actually wanted at those times. That is the best that I can put into words where I am currently at in my understanding of scripture as a whole, which is evolving at times rather slowly, as is my understanding of God. Perhaps that confuses more than clarifies my position but I’ll be the first to admit that I have not yet found the clarity that I seek and yet I would rather be where I am now than in the blind certainty of previous years when I thought I had it all figured out but was in fact wearing blinders that made it easier to look straight ahead but caused me to miss out on so much of the beauty of God all around me.
I really think that this all comes down to your definition of “ministry”. In reality, there are numerous ministries in the church; some that are designed for men, and others that are more appropriate for women. I don’t think that anyone (here, at least) would say that there’s no room for women in *any* ministry in the church, but perhaps that there are certain ministries that women are more equipped for (both “more equipped for as women” and “more equipped for than men”). Women tend to be more nurturing than men, yes. But they’re more emotional… let’s face it, more vindictive and malicious. Being a woman, I’m not afraid to admit this. I don’t think that emotional, vindictive, or malicious are listed in the qualities that a pastor should have. And I don’t know of a single woman who isn’t, or at least hasn’t at times, been one or all of those things (and if you’re honest with yourself, you’ll agree with me. If you don’t, that’s fine, too). Not that men aren’t *ever* any of those things, but men tend to be more level headed and impartial. Anyway, all of that to say what I’ve said already, and that’s that it really boils down to definition of terms.
I find it interesting to learn that “Spirit” is a feminine noun. It doesn’t surprise me that Wisdom is in Proverbs, though, since it’s widely believed that those first few chapters were written to Solomon from his mother. I don’t know what that has to do with women in ministry, but I did find it interesting, Dylan. Thanks!
@Heather
“I don’t think that emotional, vindictive, or malicious are listed in the qualities that a pastor should have.”
Those aren’t listed in the qualities that a wife should have either. Does that mean that by your reasoning men make better wives than women? Seriously, I’ve never heard anything more ridiculously sexist than that before. I’m sorry, but just because you are a woman that doesn’t disqualify you from having seriously messed up views of the differences between men and women.
“And I don’t know of a single woman who isn’t, or at least hasn’t at times, been one or all of those things (and if you’re honest with yourself, you’ll agree with me. If you don’t, that’s fine, too)”
I don’t know a single person that has never been one or all of those things to some degree or another at least at times. It’s called being human. Seriously.
“Not that men aren’t *ever* any of those things, but men tend to be more level headed and impartial.”
I’m not sure where you’re from, but clearly we converse in very different circles of men.
Sorry, if this comes off as some super-sensitive defensive reaction, it just struck me really odd as I’ve only ever heard one person phrase the differences between men and women quite that way before and it was a man who was also an engineer which he kept bringing up to point out that that made him more analytical than any woman was capable of (apparently they don’t have women engineers where he comes from).
@Cindy
I wasn’t saying that men don’t have flaws–I’ve been married to one for over 7 years, and believe me, he *is* flawed. My point was merely that there are differences between men and women, that God designed us that way. Earlier, someone quoted the verse in Genesis, “male and female, he created them”. We’re *supposed* to be different. I don’t think that women are only emotional, vindictive, and malicious. But they can be. Most aren’t always that way, but there are some that are. And I’m not saying that *only* women can be that way. You’re right, everyone is human, and everyone can be one or all of those things at one time or another; but the fact is that women are more that way. You proved it for me with what you called your “super-sensitive defensive reaction” to my post. And I don’t mean to be offensive to anyone, I’m just stating my opinion, and I don’t pull punches, if you know what I mean.
“I’m not sure where you’re from, but clearly we converse in very different circles of men.” That’s too bad. I’m from New York, originally, and I don’t think I’ve come in contact with very many men like the ones you seem to have. As for the engineer–he’s an imbecile.
I like the cartoon, but @Becky Garrison–You nailed it! I have noted this phenomenon, figuratively speaking, of course, in a number of the men who wholeheartedly believe that men were created to be leaders of the church and the home.
@Daniel, this page has a list of a scriptures that use feminine imagery for God. I have not double-checked this person’s work so I cannot vouch for it, but I am referring you to this page because I am somewhat familiar with the feminine imagery for God, and want to provide you with a potential resource, yet lack the time right now to do the research on my own.
http://clubs.calvin.edu/chimes/970418/o1041897.htm
Also, may I ask for a clarification? You state, “You are assuming too much here. I said males were a better representation of the relationship of God to man. This has nothing to do with reflecting the image of God we were all created with.”
If man is not made more in the image of God than woman is, then how does man leading church better represent the relationship of God to man than a woman leading church would?
@Heather, please share a list of the scriptures that identify which qualities God gave to men and which qualities God gave to women. I know what the book “Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus” says, but not only was it poorly researched, but the idea in the title itself, since men and women both originate from God, is unscriptural.
I wasn’t suggesting that you were saying that men don’t have flaws Heather. But just because you say that men are such and such and women are such and such, and just because that has been your experience does not make it a universal fact. And if my becoming defensive proved your point then I have to say that you have a very low threshold of proof which I suppose explains why you are so comfortable making such sweeping generalizations based on no more evidence than your percieved experience. No I do not accept that women as a whole are more vindictive than men, nor do I accept that men as a whole are more level-headed and rational than women. Are there differences between men and women? Of course there are. But apart from the biological differences they are at best statistical and as soon as you start to subscribe to these broad generalizations you lose some of your ability to see and treat each man and each woman as an individual. Furthermore, I would dispute that all of these statistical differences in personalities are inate and charecteristic of how we were created. I think if you did a more careful analyis of many of these “differences” between men and women you would find that both the degree of difference and the prevalence for many of them would vary greatly from one culture and time to another as they are largely influenced by our environments and societal attitudes.
As for the engineer being an imbecile, that seems a bit strong coming from you considering that with the exception of the engineers are more analytical than the rest of society aspect, most of what he said was very much the same as what you are saying.
Can nobody tell the ‘men’ that Spirit is a feminine noun in Hebrew as is Wisdom in Proverbs. (Dylan)
The word for “spirit” in French — l’ésprit — is feminine as well, not to mention one of the descriptions of the Holy Spirit is the “comforter”, which is a role often attributed to women.
Many Christians have faith in Jesus, not faith with Jesus and I’ve always thought the point of Jesus and his ministry and teaching was pointing to a God that could never quite be pinned downed (hence the parables and analogies and such). Most Christianity today is, in my opinion, not a religion that Jesus preached, but a religion made up about Jesus by various authorities, and as the cartoon points out, some still have a lot of issues with gender, sexism, sexuality, power and control. (Tony)
THIS. *nods* I agree completely.
And like Gibby, I look forward to day when we’re ALL truly equal.
I agree with Heather and I’m glad to see that she is not afraid of the left-leaning bullies and their mumbo jumbo…
Shelly, Gibby, Tony,
The scripture never guarantees us equality in ability or equality in position in this world. It does, however, guarantee us equality in the opportunity of salvation and the equality of value. We are all of equal value in God’s eyes.
Jesus wasn’t sent to earth to make absolutely sure that women could be pastors. He was sent to advance the kingdom of God which is in the hearts of humans. Actually, the scripture is FULFILLED ALREADY that says “there’s neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female.” We are equal in value and worth and position in the kingdom of God, not in government or the church. There exists no guarantee of equal scope and scale for any institution, compared to the kingdom of God, in the material world of humanity.
Great cartoon David!
At the risk of offending some … My husband has a great question whenever this topic comes up, “Why does having a vaginal disqualify someone from anything?”
@Daniel
I responded to your earlier questions in an earlier post which is was oddly awaiting moderation for some reason, perhaps because it has a link, I don’t know, but it’s up now if you go back. I just wanted to make one small point regarding your latest post:
I agree with your stance that the scripture is fulfilled in that we are equal in God’s eyes. But does that mean that we should not care if it is ever fulfilled in a practical sense such that the equality innate in Christ is seen and experienced in the real world amongst men? What if we continued to take the stance (as the church did for many years) that while slaves may be equal in Christ they should remain subject to their masters? There is absolutely nothing biblically that mandated us to change that reality as long you are content to say that scripture is fulfilled in Christ as far as equality goes without ever needing to be manifest in this life. Fortunately, as a society, we eventually moved beyond that with slavery and it is now also fulfilled in the practical sense. Society has also largely moved beyond (moreso in some areas than others) racial inequality and the then “equal but different mantra” that was chanted for many years. Sadly, the church was not leading the way in this but rather trailing far beyond society. And now we are slowly seeing the same with the male/female divide. Again, sadly, the church is trailing far beyond society in equality for women, though we have come a long way from the women as property upheld in the Old Testament and still prevalent in many other parts of the world today. My questions is, why must the church always be the ones trailing behind in all matters of equality if we truly recognize that we are all equal in God’s eyes? Something to think about…
and the disabled, poor, non white, ill educated…I just blogged about that today as I was at a conference where we were talking about how to reach unreached groups or sections of society, but we don’t let anyone else in to play. I think we need to hear a much wider range of voices and dismantle our power structures.
Hilarious Dave! It takes balls to put this one up! (and not overlooking the fact that I wouldn’t know how to say that if you were a woman!)
thanks darrin. glad you appreciate it. and thanks everyone for your comments. i’ve had a busy day at the school so i haven’t been around much today.
nakedpastor said:
The problem isn’t “when will the power-brokers relax the rules?“. The problem is “who are the power-brokers?“
Thank you! We’ve seen what happens when us women, and like-minded men, passively wait for the power-brokers to relinquish power. NOTHING. How often do those in power (in any situation) willingly share that power? Yeah, not often. That’s why it’s imperative to kick up a stink, question prejudice, and be courageous in our ministry.
The oppression of women in general is very much a peace and justice issue. It’s embarrassing when the church perpetuates systemic issues rather than fighting them.
i agree MLE. it’s not the presenting problem. like an illness, it’s just a symptom. what’s causing the problem? that’s the more serious and disturbing question.
Cindy,
Ha ha…very good.
.
On a serious note, the instinct to take care of people is great, but not at the expense of the gospel. Too many women place taking care of people, not offending people, being tolerant of other religions, etc., OVER and above the proclamation of God’s law and His gospel.
That, IMO, is not a good thing.
steve: about your “serious note”… men are guilty of the same you accuse “too many women” of.
It appears to me and so Sad-u-cee
That the old Phar-i-see
Is the new Phallus-ee.
Yes, David, that is true.
But in denominations that have women clergy, that denomination almost always (maybe always) lurches left.
I believe leftward is not a good direction for the reasons I stated in my previous comment.
The goal is (should be) to remain non-political, and Christ centered, not political and human centered.
On many occasions Steve I don’t get where you are coming from – surely the gospel is about taking care of people.
Ian,
No, not really. The gospel is about Jesus forgiving sinners. Taking care of people is (should be) the concern of all of humanity, no matter if we are Christians, or not. There is nothing inherently Christian about taking care of people.
The #1 job of the church is to proclaim Christ. And for many liberal churches this is way down the line, if it is still there at all.
I’m not sure I’ve ever come across a denomination that isn’t political.
@Daniel & @Heather:
Please don’t miss my comments and questions in one of the earlier posts. It was moderated because it contained a link.
MLE,
Our denomination is VERY political, but our congregation is NOT.
We are concerned with Christ and His gospel. Outside of the sanctuary, we are free to engage in whatever political causes we will.
Our congregation is made up fairly evenly between liberals and conservatives. (I know because I have been there 13 years and know just about everyone well enough to know their politics)
This 30 second read:
http://theoldadam.wordpress.com/2008/10/24/no-political-gospels/
expresses our congregation’s philosophy on political gospels.
Steve,
I was taken aback by your comment that above but I see my problem – I’ll just get my black Texta out cross out James 1:27. Fixed now.
I’d like to cross out a lot of what James says. Not because the things he mentions aren’t things we ought not be doing, but because he places on emphasis on works rather than an emphasis on what Christ has done.
Then you end up with Christians trusting in what THEY have done, rather than what Christ has done.
That is the main reason Luther called the book of James the “epistle of straw”.
odd how in the Gospels some people did ‘see’ what the parables were about and some didn’t. And today.
Steve,
thanks for confirming my suspicions – so you do pick and choose verses (and in this case a whole book) on what to believe and what not to.
I have a problem though. I keep looking for the book or letter of Luther in the table of contents of the Bible I have here – darn just can’t find it. What version are you using?
At first I was just curious why you called this blog nakedpastor. So you are a cartoonist. Thanks for the cartoons. They are funny and instructive.
As for women in the ministry the objection is rather theoretical. Women have been in the ministry as far back as Deborah and beyond. We will always have women ministers.
thanks Jose!
Cindy,
Sorry I didn’t respond quickly, I had a couple interviews to attend.
The image of God that we bear deals with our value and our essential makeup consisting of body, soul, and spirit. We have a three in one essence which mirrors the image of God in the trinity. Gender is not a consideration when we talk about the image of God.
Now, when I talk about the relationship between God and man, I’m referring to how he relates to us. And, time and time again in the scriptures, he describes his relationship as a male to a female. Most of the description is overwhelmingly from a male perspective. Another description is one of a parent to a child. And yet again, much of the qualities found in the Spirit are naturally found in the female motherly role. All this imagery illustrates the trinity of the family, just as God the Father relates to the Son and the Spirit. Both the Son and the Spirit recognize God the Father’s role and they are in subjection to that role. Basically, God is a relational being within himself and that “community” is illustrated in the family and in the essence of every human.
Although God is neither male nor female, I can only conclude that God thinks that we can relate to him best as we relate to a male. I think this not because males have a penis, but because of the roles given to the different parts of the trinity of human essence, the trinity of the family, and the trinity of God.
In relations, we all play a role where we can best relate to one another. The child cannot best relate to a mother while acting like his mother’s mother. Moreover, it is in our subjection to one another and our acceptance of each other’s roles that harmony can exist within the respective trinities.
With all this is mind, when a women takes the role of the pastor I would not necessarily call it wrong, just not ideal. We relate best to God as we relate to a male and therefore God’s bride the church best relates to the male head of the church, but only as long as the male is focused on his responsibility of care for the church. Any deviation from that and abuse will occur.