For years prior to leaving the church I tried to make it known that I was inclusive of gays being a part of our community. I think other members of the community, for the most part, were inclusive. In intention anyway. I know many struggled with it. But I think most people were struggling in what I think is the right direction.
But it was an issue. I had many many talks, sometimes heated, about it. The community was pretty much representative of the whole spectrum of positions on the issue, from homophobic to loving the sinner but hating the sin, from exclusion to inclusion, from believing it was biblically an abomination to thinking the bible is unclear to thinking it didn’t matter what the bible’s stance is because it is a dated document. But it was a constant issue. When someone I knew was gay, or especially a gay couple, came to the church, I was on pins and needles waiting for a reaction to them. I didn’t mind when they, say, held hands, but I was so afraid of them being rejected because of it. The issue was always in my face because I believe gays deserve equal status, rights and privileges without fear of negative ramifications. I worried on their behalf.
Now it is no longer an issue. It is a non-issue for me. I still believe that gays should have equal status, rights and privileges without fear of negative ramifications in all of society. But it is no longer complicated by my constant obsession with their acceptance and inclusion into a delicate and sometimes easily offended community, the church.
It simply doesn’t matter. So you’re gay! So what? Be gay! If you want to be a part of a religious community, then find one that is inclusive. Or find one that is trying to be. Or go and keep your identity and orientation private. Or go to one that isn’t inclusive and don’t give a damn what they think about you and cause a shit-storm. Whatever. This is not to trivialize the extent of the pain you’ve experienced over this issue. But your sexuality is your business. Not theirs.
So you’re gay.
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My name is David Hayward, and I am the nakedpastor. I am a graffiti artist on the walls of religion.
@Sisterlisa,
Or…maybe the bronze age primitives figured that killing homosexuals already covered those points and saw them as redundant.
Okay, so some seem to want to make the argument that the bible really doesn’t speak ill of homosexuals or that if it does, it doesn’t really matter because times are different today. If the latter is the case, then my only response can be, “Why in the ^#$*! do you subscribe to ANY of this nonsense then?” As to the first argument…read on.
If people want to split hairs on that particular issue, then fine, but they should be consistent and explain other scriptures that are not so easy to misinterpret or twist to one’s convenience. I’d say that this video pretty much sums up my argument, and does it in a much more entertaining and eloquent way than I could ever do.
Enjoy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hCovYF51qHE&feature=channel_video_title
Cindy, I entirely agree with the fact that your father, no matter how much he claims to love you, is acting from his own predjudices (albeit the church probably put them there )with the way he treats your situation as opposed to your brother’s situation. He needs to educate himself on matters regarding sexual appetites. He would discover that there are a broad range of activities within the so-called respectable heterosexual community – married or otherwise – that would shake him up a bit and put a stop to the stereotyping he seems to be into regarding the gay population. What a horrible environment you and your wife have to exist in. For you, especially, as the daughter of such a bigoted man, it must be heartbreaking. Does not your brother support you in this and stick up for you, ever? Are you entirely on your own where your family is concerned?
I don’t see this to be as much of a Christian attitude as of one of ignorance and plain old fashioned thinking, otherwise he ought not to have any contact with your brother’s ex-wife either. My heart goes out to you…Crystal.
@TGM – If you are really interested (on something in between your two positions above), try searching “homosexuality” on this site and reading some of the past conversations. It might sound to you like a bunch of people arguing about the colour of the dirt under a rock on the far side of the moon, but it should give you a feel for the various hermeneutical and theological positions.
I could add that for those who discuss this (and many issues) from a religious/spiritual perspective, consistency is a quality of high importance, both in how one reads various parts of the bible (hermeneutical), or in how or to what extent one applies biblical precepts in a modern context (theological).
In short, people often take one or both of the positions you describe above (that the bible does not condemn homosexuality and/or that that condemnation is or would be inappropriate today), but most would also have answers to your questions about other scriptural passages and/or why they bother with scripture at all.
TGM,
There are some mistranslations in the Bible on this topic. And even if someone wanted to stick firmly with the English translations , we still have to understand that the Law in the OT was given to the Jews. Not the Gentiles. And last I checked, most of Christianity today aren’t Jews. We’re not to be living under their law in the first place, or in the second place.
Sisterlisa, last I checked, we Christians are supposed to be grafted onto the vine forsaken by the Jews, so we are in fact bona-fide Jews. Born again Messianic Jews hold to this firmly. Not sure how they interpret OT laws however…crystal.
@TMG,
Food for thought indeed. I’m not sure I buy the “blank-slate” argument, but certainly our environments do play a major role in shaping the way we think, including our prejudices. And certainly religion plays a role in such things. I think it would be naive though to assume that religion creates bigotry. I think it would be naive to believe that a world without religion would be a world without bigotry, hatred, war, etc (though the concept makes for an interesting song). Was my father’s prejudice shaped by his religious beliefs? I’m sure they played a role, but clearly there is more to it than that. There is nothing inherent in Christianity or the bible that would lead to this type of prejudice. What causes a person to single out homosexuality as somehow being worse than other things that the bible speaks much more about? No, I think there is something more to it than that. I think there is something in human nature (or whatever else one cares to call it) that causes us to fear people that are different from us and things that we don’t understand. That’s not to say that religion doesn’t play to that fear, doing it’s part to develop a dangerous us vs. them mentality. These are things I think about all the time and do not claim to have the answers on. I am currently wrestling with just how much value should be placed on the bible and how important it should or shouldn’t be to my faith.
@Crystal,
Thank you for your thoughts, though I feel I should clarify that my wife and I do not exist in a horrible environment. The situation with my family is not good, but it is in reality a small part of our lives which are generally quite wonderful. I don’t want to come across as a victim in need of pity. I see my family all of twice a year as I no longer live in the same part of the country as any of them. It does sadden me greatly that we have this wall between us, but it does not keep me from enjoying life. I try to hold out hope that things will improve between my family and I over time. That is easier some days than others. But ultimately, if they never accept me, I will continue to thrive in other relationships that are more than enough to make my life wonderful and hopefully find a way to make a difference in the lives of others who are not nearly as fortunate as I am.
I personally believe the bible is unclear for the most part. But even if it was, I believe it is a dated document concerning this issue.
Crystal,
Grafted in doesn’t mean to live by the Law. If you live by the Law, you’re cursed by the Law, We are to live by faith.
We are grafted into the Love. not the Law.
The only law now is love. Against such, there is no law.
Wow David…you opened this can of worms again ?
I’m still reeling from the last debate on this subject
yes tony. i suppose it will always be the case. this discussion is somewhat civil though imo.
Cindy,
I’m pleased that you manage to lead a happy, fulfilled life, despite that lack of acceptance from your family. I do know from personal experience though, how important family acceptance is to a person. We grow up desiring acceptance from our parents, and when we don’t get it, we naturally move onto other ways in which to feel accepted. It’s our survival instincts that enable us to be independant of our parents, in most cases. I just sensed that hurt that must be there. I probably used ultra strong words and am glad that you still love your father and meet with your family a couple of times a year on their terms. That tells me you are secure in yourself and have not allowed that situation to ruin your happiness. I wish it was like that for every person. Sadly, some are wounded beyond belief from the type of behaviour your father exhibits towards you, his child. Good luck with the hope that one day he will turn around…Crystal.
As a new (female, heterosexual) christian who grew up secularly, I have a lot of issues with homophobic teachings from the church. This seems to be an issue that the church often uses to make itself excel at exclusion and hatred. David, thank you for showing that not everyone involved, either at present or in the past, in ministry, is so blinkered – it’s very encouraging!
@ Cindy.
Your last comment was fantastic. Gives me much to think about. Thanks. You’re a good teacher!
@ everyone else…wanna know one of the reasons I like to check in on this blog even though I’m an atheist?
The nice people. I don’t believe 1/1000th of the stuff that gets discussed here, but you really are a great bunch of folks and for the most part, fairly tolerant.
I also happen to learn something from time to time as well…:-)
Sisterlisa.
Yes, you are correct. I know of Christians, though, who believe that they have to follow the Jewish laws as well as following love. They claim it is possible to do both. They organise rituals surrounding the Jewish laws and put pressure on Christians to follow them. I was part of a sub group like that in one of my churches a few years ago. It felt so meaningless to me at the time, yet a kind of guilt was gnawing at me as the rituals were explained to us. I almost fell into the trap of performing them, just in case I was wrong to not do so. I’m out of that now. Love is freeing, not binding. The whole grafting in thing is biblical, but what are we to do with the fact that the Jews were God’s chosen people and Jesus was also a Jew? That one is still, to me, a bit of a mystery. Why pick on one particular group to favour?
Don’t mean to get everybody off topic here…Crystal.
Crystal, that’s a good topic to dig into. Perhaps David will consider writing about it.
Thank you all for your kind welcome to me! This looks a really special blog and I’m glad I came over!
“I personally believe the bible is unclear for the most part. But even if it was, I believe it is a dated document concerning this issue.”
I think that, whatever we personally believe, it is time to accept that there is a huge body of very good pro-gay theology out there. We may not agree with it (assuming we’ve read it all!), but it is enough to accept that it is perfectly possible and legitimate for Christians to have different views on same sex sexuality.
It is therefore time to respect that various different views exist, that they are not automatically immoral, wilful and not Christian, and to live and let live without all this fighting.
The bulk of the ‘church’ has made the homosexual community their scapegoat, their excuse to point at someone else so noone looks at the crap in their own lives. Cowards. Have they never heard of their real scapegoat, Jesus?
Wow! “It simply doesn’t matter. So you’re gay! So what? Be gay!”
(asw if it’s a choice?)
“If you want to be a part of a religious community, then find one that is inclusive.”
(if there’s one where you are)
“Or find one that is trying to be.”
(if they’re trying, they’re not open about it)
“Or go and keep your identity and orientation private.”
(stay in the closet)
“Or go to one that isn’t inclusive and don’t give a damn what they think about you and cause a shit-storm.”
(because queers tend to be pissy little uppity in-your-face hissy-fit throwers?)
Whatever.
(ultimate apathy)
This is not to trivialize the extent of the pain you’ve experienced over this issue.”
Guess what? It DOES tend to read as doing JUST THAT.
The overall impression this screed leaves: “Please, I’m tired of it all, and you’re just too much trouble.”
Jesus wept . . . and no wonder.
boyermarkham: ya. you got the wrong impression. if i contributed to that i’m sorry.
I got the sentiment of this post. (It helped that I’d read other things of yours on the subject.)
It just sounds naive to think we have those kinds of choices.