Sometimes pictures help.
cartoon: starvation hell
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My name is David Hayward, and I am the nakedpastor. I am a graffiti artist on the walls of religion.
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My name is David Hayward, and I am the nakedpastor. I am a graffiti artist on the walls of religion.
Wow…that really makes one think…it addresses the question of predestination/God’s elect…something that I’ve struggled with and just can’t bring myself to accept-that God would predestine some to be saved, and in turn, others not to be. I feel like sharing it on fb but I think I’d be lynched by my some of my fb friends if I did lol. I think it is controversial but in a good way…sometimes controversy is needed in starting dialogue.
Great piece!
Says who?
Jesus will make that call…not us.
Is that a young Obama?
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Wow David.
If this god existed an didn’t actually send people to hell if they hadn’t heard about his word- then wouldn’t that make their missionaries responsible for their fate?
David…that thought is exactly what started me down my ‘slipery -slope’ journey. One day…I had this random though…so obvious yet it never occured to me prior…I wondered how I scored being born in America…in such privilege and truth? Under the right star…with Jesus on my side? And conversly…why wasn’t I born a Somali Muslim? What happens to those who live in a literal hell on earth now when they die without Jesus?
The well meaning Christians in my life at the time…explained to me that “god ‘just creates some for the day of distruction’. I mean, He’s the potter right? So if he wants to make some brown or black people to stoke the fires of hell…who am I to question his motives.It’s his perogative. GAH.
The whole “Jesus will make that call…not us”…implies there is some question still as to how that might all shake out for those poor people who it seems to me god has utterly forsaken and forgotten.It seems like we are afraid to say…yah…that really doesn’t make sense and I think it’s a load of crap.
I think the first will be last and the last will be first…
One of the strongest arguments against the crazy doctrine of eternal punishment for the majority of mankind.
There are two of us.
This cartoon vividly illustrates the battle that has lately been going on in my mind. The more I learn about the character of God, the less inclined I am to believe that the statement is true. And, if most evangelicals really believed it, there would be a lot fewer multi million dollar buildings and more reaching out to “the least of these.”
yeah i think we should be far more intersted in the hells we make on earth then worrying about eternal life – a theology conjured up when people died much younger. We really do need to develop theologies for the living.
The type of view of god and salvation is more about a postcode/ national lottery then anything to do with god. The god that is often talked about is a middle class god and saves those who are rich or happen to live in a certain place or state. If you happen to be born on an inner city estate, your prospects and hope is diminshed and the and so is your prospect of being saved!!
Christian Aid – an aid agency based in the UK for several years used the strapline – “we believe in life before death”. Which was something i could believe in – if the gospel/ good news is anything surely it is giving hope/help to those in need. Didn’t jesus base judgement (seperation of sheep/goats) on what we did for the least… visit those in prison, feed the hungry etc… nothing to do with what we believed… but how we live.
Yup. I think this is why folks like us Universalists are on the rise again.
LOL @ Steve Martin’s comment, “Is that a young Obama?”
Very thought provoking David. And it need to be “said”. Thank you!
@ Steve Martin – “And, if most evangelicals really believed it, there would be a lot fewer multi million dollar buildings and more reaching out to “the least of these.”
That implies that most evangelicals actually care about what happens to “the least of these” at least as much as they care about their own comfort. I wish I could believe that…
I don’t believe people go to hell without having had the opportunity to accept or deny Christ as your Savior. When in life you are given the choice may vary with your circumstances or maybe even God’s plan but the choice always has been and always will be yours. One can not “wait” for a better day or to “think about it awhile” because there are no guarantees of tomorrow or even your next minute.
Never ceases to amaze me the levels that human folly is capable of achieving.As a matter of fact it is quite characteristic of ceratin forms of protestantism.As annoying that the predestinistic crowd can be,the prosperity gospellers and their moronic take on social issues such as poverty(basically:if you are por you are far from God or being punished in some way by Him)is nauseating.But to each his/her own,one thing I do know:this capitalistic god/stock broker/bank is the archetypal crap.
FALSE! I’ve always known in my heart that just because of your economic situation or family background, or whatever, that doesn’t mean you would go to hell! I’m not even sure if there is a hell anymore!!! AHHH!!! If that cartoon is true, then we save ourselves; then, it’s the survival of the fittest. Wrong. God is love. And, even if there is a hell, amd people go there, God is still love. =D
My thought too. I’ve always questioned the belief that just because you were born in a poor country or one where a different religion was generally practiced, that that was simply your bad luck or some kind of karma. So what that missionaries went to save people like that. They couldn’t get everybody could they? What about the ones who got away? Or the ones that simply weren’t there when the missionaries set up camp? Or the ones that didn’t understand or weren’t spoken to in a way that they could relate to. Did that mean that God disowned them when he is supposed to love everybody? No, your cartoon speaks volumes to me, David, and it will to many others. Keep on speaking it the way it is…Crystal.
Maybe AC/DC had the right idea.
Living easy, living free
Season ticket on a one-way ride
Asking nothing, leave me be
Taking everything in my stride
Don’t need reason, don’t need rhyme
Ain’t nothing I would rather do
Going down, party time
My friends are gonna be there too
I’m on the highway to hell
No stop signs, speed limit
Nobody’s gonna slow me down
Like a wheel, gonna spin it
Nobody’s gonna mess me round
Hey Satan, payed my dues
Playing in a rocking band
Hey Momma, look at me
I’m on my way to the promised land
I’m on the highway to hell
(Don’t stop me)
And I’m going down, all the way down
I’m on the highway to hell
Oh, in case you needed the tune.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xv24N8H1KyI
Believe it or not, I’ve heard Christian radio pastors try to wiggle around this. They actually say that God makes Himself available in some mysterious way to everyone- even if a missionary doesn’t get to your jungle- and if you don’t respond by loving him back somehow or other, well, kid, then it’s your own fault that you’re gonna burn. True story.
If christ lives in us and the holy spirit is in us, then we are responsible for those who die poor for we were commissioned for this very purpose, Luke 4:18, isaiah 61:1 mathew 11:5.So before we let loose our thoughts about the intentions of God which are good, lets us ask ourselves what we have done to demonstrate the awesome power of God and his love for us and especially those young ‘somali muslims’
mathew 25:35 it is God himself behind these faces, that means we’ll have to give up our usual sitting position for a more unfamiliar one if we are men and women of faith…stay blessed.
“They actually say that God makes Himself available in some mysterious way to everyone-…”
The Book of Romans answers this.
That we all deserve hell is our own faults.
But God in Christ Jesus has done something about it.
I think what you said in the cartoon actually fits well with real life. Like one negative thing leads to other negative things. Or one positive trait leads to other positive traits.
For example, look at the suffering of Joni Earekson Tada. Well, after all that, she also gets breast cancer. Of if you’re born with or develop a bent for negative thinking. That leads to other negatives. Your attitude can actually shorten your life.
In other words, God doesn’t say, “Aw, it’s a bummer you have to deal with this one negative, so I’ll compensate for that and you’ll have lots of good stuff also.”
Like if you’re born in Somalia-you might have 20 strikes against you vs. born in America, you have 20 strikes going for you.
Or like the rich get even richer and the poor get even poorer.
What’s really funny in a sick way, are those who go around telling people how precious they are to God. I’m just not seeing it.
And sorry to be such a downer, but I’m just saying what I see in the real world.
Amazingly but true, its those who are born and breed in plenty that do not believe or have a twisted belief and those living in somali-lyke life style that see the glory of God. The real world is created by spiritual realm and unlike science you don’t have to see it to believe in it.
How old do you have to be to choose heaven or hell?
Do you need to be able to say the sinners prayer to be saved? – What if you can’t talk/ or understand?
Babies are all evil/ sinners? – or born in the image of god!
If ones theology cannot answer these questions then it should be abandoned.
“If ones theology cannot answer these questions then it should be abandoned.”
Why should we be able to answer all the questions of what’s in the mind of God?
His ways are not our ways.
He is God and He can handle all the things above us.
I agree steve – we don’t know what is in the mind of god – that is why the agnostics embrace not knowing, the mystics embrace love, the universalists embrace everyone and the contemplatives embrace all things.
The Word says ‘there are mysteries’, and “God’s ways are higher than our ways”. We try to understand with reason in the scope of our revelation. NOT Possible…Man does not always understand God’s ways. When we reach heaven, we will understand. Let’s be patient, have hope and faith, live the best that we can, treat people kindly, obey the Golden rule the best we can, and leave the rest to the Lord. I’m going to die, and be with the Lord…the End!
Heaven and Hell are inside you. God is inside you. Everything is limited or released by you.
Steve and James, I really agree with what ur saying. B/c the idea of universalism, and these other ways of thinking tends to put God in a box as well. B/c if we are really looking at Scripture, there are many verses that talk about some sort of hell. That’s my opinion, and that’s where I’m at! It’s hard sometimes, to let God be God, and let us be us. Jesus calls us to love God, and love people, and to share the Gospel with others. May that be the call of all of our hearts. =D
Good thoughts, Kamber!
however greatly this plays on people’s emotions, the premise is untrue altogether. No one goes to hell because of where they are born, i.e. because they don’t have the written gospel. The see-saw teeters both ways….light is given to every… man, God is not a respector of persons, and all men can know their Creator. Most of all, God does not send children to hell. That is just a terrible way to portray a God who reveals himself as the defender of children, all children, no matter where they are born. Jesus said, to anyone who would harm a little child, it would be better if a millstone were tied around their neck, and they were cast into the depths of the sea, than to face the punishment and wrath God had in store for them. He is the father to the fatherless, and the loving God, who prepares justice for those who harm children.
Haunting picture, haunting question.
Yes, Josh, Universalism is on the rise again. Understandably, I would say.