I am going to make a confession. Will you be my confessor?
I want to share a certain struggle I have had for most of my life. It’s about money. It has come to the surface because I find it difficult to charge people money when they seek me for the pastoral counseling services I’ve just recently started providing.
Years ago, when I was just around 25 years old, I had what was probably my most significant spiritual trauma. I was in ministry and I was very abrupt and rude with a poor street person. I was so focused on my ministry that when he got in the way of it I mistreated him. I went home and completely crumbled for several days. In that time my whole spiritual orientation shifted. I dug up a neglected book I’d received as a seminary graduation gift by Henri Nouwen called Reaching Out. That lead me to Thomas Merton. That lead me to finding my own spiritual director, Sister Marie, now an Abbess of a monastery. In the truest sense, that was a spiritually revolutionary time for me.
But what happened during that time was not all healthy. I was young, immature and not wise. One day I found myself listening to John Michael Talbot, who had recently become a kind of monastic and a hermit, having been influenced by his readings of St. Francis of Assisi. I admired all of this. In fact, this was a very disturbing time for our marriage. Lisa was very upset because I wished I was a hermit like Merton and Talbot. (I hate to think of these times, but alas, they are there.) I fell in love with one of Talbot’s songs, “Lady Poverty“. Here are the lyrics:
Lady poverty love me tonight
dress me in sackcloth where once i wore white
and disperse my fine linens to the naked and the poor
lady poverty enter my door give me the riches of my lordlet all suffering come to an end
embracing all hunger let me call it my friend
let my love be made perfect without seeking reward
lady poverty enter my door give me the riches of my Lordand if Jesus was a poor man then like him i too must be
and if Jesus was a beggar than lift me up to my knees
for if love never seeks out its ownif love always gives when there’s no reward shown
let us be beggars and paupers and servants at best
laboring always so that others might rest
that the sweet name of Jesus our tongues might confess
I weep when I read these lyrics again after so many years because they were knitted into my spirit, my psyche. So much so that I’m not sure they can be extracted. There are nothing wrong with these lyrics as long as one remembers this is Talbot’s prayer and not necessarily one’s own. I failed to make this distinction and made this vow. I believed that because Jesus was poor I had to be also. Which isn’t true. I know that now. But I sang it all the time then. I sang it in the church in which I was ministering. When I was a guest speaker in other churches I sang it there. I reduced my wardrobe to one set of clothes and shoes. Lisa calls this season my “Gandhi years” because I was also influenced by Gandhi and Mother Teresa, etc. (Sorry Lisa. It pains me to think of these times and the pain I caused you.)
We may agree that the love of money makes money an idol. Mammon. But the hatred of money makes it an idol also. For instance, whether we fight for or against something, the impulse is the same, assigning supreme power to the object of our love or hatred. This is true for money. What I didn’t realize at the time was that, because of my immaturity and lack of wisdom, I actually attributed to money more power than less in my own life.
I’ve struggled with money ever since. As a result, I possess what I might call a poverty mentality. I know that recovery from this is one of my personal projects. It is probably the most strenuous assignment I’ve had to tackle to date.
You can buy the original of my drawing “Jesus, Age 12″, or a fine art print of it here.
My name is David Hayward, and I am the nakedpastor. I am a graffiti artist on the walls of religion.
Wow Dave. The iceberg under this ‘tip’ you write about is massive, and is an iceberg in the lives of many of us. Probably the biggest reason that I hate the ministry and will cross the street to avoid most of the people with whom and for whom I ministered. Just being honest. Man, the wasted years, the wasted opportunities, the losses. Huge.
We own our choices for adopting this poverty mentality and agreeing to live under its’ yoke, but if this is not the fundamental way in which churches abuse pastors and workers of parachurch organizations then I don’t know what is.
I would like to read and know the stories of many others who have suffered under this hideous abuse. First we adopt the belief system: “it’s holy to be poor”, then we respond to the invitations to serve under these beliefs, then we rationalize these beliefs and accept the pittances we are paid, and of course, at last we allow ourselves (as economic beings) to be stripped and forced into beggary while we lose our ability to be independant because we have become dependant on either God’s magic wand or the few well off people we know who appreciate our work (which of course is the only magic god wand that exists).
And the taskmasters we work for smile in approval because they have us right where they want us.
Man it’s painful to even think about.
feeling this one, good comment from Darrin
You should consider this acknowledgment a victory.
A very thought-provoking post and many of the feelings you have experienced are familiar to people of conscience, whether religious or other, but a pragmatic way of seeing the other side of the coin is that when you abandon the need to make money, (even just enough to live on), you by default, pass the responsibility for your survival to others.
I can easily appreciate the need to ‘free yourself’ of the trappings of a worldy life, yet somehow a balance has to be found, and it sounds as though you have arrived at that place.
May the rest of your journey be easier.
This gets at the crux of a lot of our conversations. In my travels, I’ve “tried” to do is to follow the advice of Andrew Jones – he doesn’t charge for speaking, teaching, etc. but encourages people to give what they can – sometimes it’s a large check, other times it’s a non-monetary gift. For example, when people open up their homes to me, I try to give back a gift – as a writer, I’m often given freebies and I pass on books, tickets to an event, a bottle of wine that I know the hosts will like. This reciprocity makes it feel more like two people sharing their resources and themselves instead of someone charging for services rendered.
Just wondering how many people you’re counseling might want to give something back to you in thanks for your kindness.
This is such a big subject. It hit a nerve with me also, because I’ve realized I have a big thing that’s all tied up about money and religion and other people.
In reading about your experience and Darrin’s experience, it seems your faith influenced you to come to a conclusion that caused you problems. This happened to me too. Then I watched other Christians who did not come to this conclusion.
I think I came to resent them because I had come to unwise conclusions. It made me feel basically like I had taken my religion seriously, and that was a mistake. It was naive. That is my thinking.
I keep coming back to that same theme. If you take it seriously, it harms you. I realize I’m mixing religion up with my own personality and my original family and THEN coming to certain beliefs.
Darrin, you mentioned avoiding those who you associate with your pain on this subject. I have that problem also. I basically hide from those who’ve caused me pain, even if they didn’t really do anything to me.
Re the paying for counseling part, I went to a counselor for a couple years, and it was extremely helpful to my situation. My insurance covered some and she adjusted my copay down some when the copay started to be a problem. I appreciated that very much.
Thank you for bringing up this subject and good luck with trying to get yourself to a healthier or more realistic or whatever place. This subject is a very important one and has influenced many people I bet.
Hey Lynn thanks. I always appreciate your comments. I should also clarify something. For me it’s not anger towards or hurt by those people who I avoid (I know you’re not saying that, but I hear that all the time when people talk about those who leave the ministry).
Many of the people I avoid are nice people and my stepping away from church life came at a point where I had the respect of other church leaders, having “paid my dues” for 20 years in ministry. Initially you go through the hell and the attacks, and basically if you just stay standing long enough to out-live the church and Christian organizational toxic dysfunction, you have a standing worthy of respect. Then they make you head of ministerials and so on and time in service equals street credibility. And I earned it.
I avoid not because I am mad at them but because they need and want to tell me their story and solicit my listening, my empathy, and support. This was the stuff that would come regardless if I was on the job or at the mall with my kids. Evidently, making three kids stand in a mall for 45 minutes Friday night while you tell a pastor your latest Christian understanding of recent experience is O.K. Btw, what is the reason for this extensive social ineptness amongst Christians? Have we taught and fostered that?
I think I began to see the entire church system and faith community as a massive web of co-dependency (among other unhealthy things). I had to cut loose from it for my own sanity and survival, and running in to all these people in my small city only brings the reminders of all of that and the costs to me and to my family.
Also, I cannot keep the lid on my own REAL thoughts anymore when I am talking to these folks. My patience and listening capacity is peopled out and I don’t want them to hear what I would actually say.
Maybe the emotional costs and the financial costs of life in the religious fishbowl is still a largely untold story for many… so when Dave posted this today, I felt a measure of comfort in not being alone in this realization that he outlined. It’s not easy to read, but I wish more people would tell their story of the financial impact Christian belief and ministry service had on them.
‘We may agree that the love of money makes money an idol. Mammon. But the hatred of money makes it an idol also.’
A saying from a few years ago: Hate is not the opposite of love. Indifference is.
As you quite rightly say, love or hate, you are giving the object of that emotion power of influence.
Oh, and Becky: Andrew Jones of tallskinnykiwi fame? (just so I can have the right person in mind)
Oh, David…can I relate to this! I was raised Roman Catholic…poverty equaled spirituality. Then as a Pentacostal, women weren’t given an honorarium for speaking. The first time I was handed a check after speaking, I was frazzled. I was going to donate it back. It took a friend several hours to get me to see I was worth it. No, the words to the Talbott song can’t be erased, but they CAN be overridden(sp?). A friend who left a monastary had a struggle with it…he’d already taken his vows. I overcame it to a degree…I can receive an honorarium peacefully…charge for a seminar without a hesitation (although I DO make concessions)…I still don’t charge a fee for counsel…a donation if they wish…but I’ve come a long way. Let me look and see if I can find a song…you need a song because the original was a song and music puts it deeper into the subconscious than just words…that puts the emphasis on abundance. One of the New Thought musicians has to have something. Then if you sing it and get it into your spirit, it will take the place of the original.
The big question is…can you believe that you can be compensated for spiritual work?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1RYc6k803oo&playnext=1&list=PLAB110E3379FECC4B
I understand the tension created between ministry and money. I look at it that that which can’t be bought shouldn’t be sold. The things I have received from and learned about God were freely given. This is why I chose to be a tentmaker. In ministry I never charge. I minister freely and God provides for me. Many times those I minister to don’t have money but God uses other people to provide. This is where I am but do I judge those who are paid. Scripture clearly says that teachers are worthy of pay.
David, this post brought me to thinking about something Pastor Richard Wurmbrand said when he visited a church I used to attend many years ago. Believe me when I say that he exuded the spirit of Jesus as he sat up on stage in our Pastor’s easy chair brought from his office because Richard couldn’t stand for very long due to the effects of the torture he had been subject to during his fourteen year imprisonment in Rumania.
Our Pastor shared with us afterwards that Richard had put him straight on the belief he had always had that a Pastor should live as close to poverty as possible, and embrace suffering – more than embrace it. Seek it out. Richard told him that that was his belief for years after he had been released from prison. He admitted that torture, isolation, and deprivation had stripped him of normal life and his ability to believe that humans were entitled to comfort and safety and anything that embraces pleasures in any form. In other words, he was twisted in his beliefs by being subject to such terrible treatment.He wrote books that encouraged other Christians to seek out suffering and he regretted that deeply once he healed in his spirit. He told our Pastor to be grateful for the things he had and not to wish that he didn’t have them. “Don’t seek out suffering, but only be comforted that if it comes to you, God will help you endure it, as he did me.” was the last sentence he left him with as he said goodbye on that day.
I have never forgotten those words, and I think they pertain a little, or maybe a lot, to your post today. You can apply them to your money situation. You have to earn a living and support your family like anybody does. To say that you don’t need money is a falsehood. If you don’t earn money, then you will become like the poor who need help in their poverty. Poverty and suffering are not great attributes of a Christian life, or Jesus would not have asked us to reach out to people in their time of need. He would have told us to leave them alone and let them suffer. Oh, I’m sure you know all this deep inside, but boy oh boy, how our Christian upbringing teaches us these untruths and makes us count them as truths. I could start preaching about this, I feel so strongly about it, and I’m not even a preacher!
Hope this helps a little, David. Thank you for being so open and honest (naked) about this sensitive and sometimes delicate subject that I think we all trip over from time to time. As for myself, I never doubted for one moment that you would not charge a fee for personal advice, one on one counselling or the like…Crystal.
You might want to examine influences from your parents’ attitude toward money also.
Re counseling, I discovered that it’s way worth the money, because counselors are VERY GOOD at listening, really listening. Yes, people are wanting comfort, but they also can be desperate to have someone who can understand the psychology of their situation or subtle abuse, etc.
I’ve just got to mention again the amazement I have toward how different people get OPPOSITE messages from the Bible on the same subject. I think it starts with our family background, then our personality, then throw in some theology and Bible verses, then out comes our attitude toward money. But the attitudes are all different!
I just thought of Richard Simmons cause I’ve started using his exercise tapes. A wild and crazy guy. I think he’s also, from what I’ve heard, very empathetic toward people with huge eating problems. I heard he spends a lot of time on the phone talking with them. I don’t know if he charges. He may not charge at all. But he’s able to do that because he’s wealthy, so money is not an issue.
In my living simply days, I remember a time when I was living in an inner city community doing mission living on next to nothing and claiming housing benefit from the state. I invited a past theological lecturer to do some teaching with my team and expected him to do it for nothing in support of our big sacrifice. In no uncertain terms he told me not to push my lifestyle onto him – it was a wake up call. I wore my simplicity as a badge of honour to prove to others how radical and committed i was…
Although I still don’t like to waste stuff – presently I am planning to move and I have taken six trips to the recycling centre to dump all the woood I couldn’t part with… I live lighter on the money thing.
thanks lynn. interesting.
thanks for sharing that james. wow. what a story!
David, I think my last sentence is meant to imply that you ought to charge for your services. On reading it, it seems to me that it could mean the opposite of what I intended? Just want to make that clear. Obsessional wordsmith that I am…Crystal.
You should absolutely charge for your services. Your post and the comments that followed were really an eye-opener for me. I have a moderate poverty mentality as a result of never having been rich, but I have not known dire poverty or homelessness and I don’t think many preachers have either. What I would appreciate in a preacher is a humble approach to life, not living poorly or extravagantly. I am shocked that people would expect a poverty lifestyle from their pastors. What I most disrespect, however, are those megachurch dudes screeching that God wants us to have money, it is his design for us to be rich and we need only find the key (seems implied there is always “you give me your money and I will see to it that God makes you comfortable”).
It is that humble, open approach to our individual lives that sets us apart from those with the poverty mentality or the I-deserve-everything mentality. “If it be Your will” might be the mantra, while living an examined life to ensure that we understand exactly what that will might be, embracing all that it might entail. My latest post at my second blog has a song that says what I mean…If It Be Your Will.
I went through a whole “poverty” phase in my life, I’d only wear one pair of jeans and only wear these poorly-made…I think Americans call them sneakers?…I made it my goal to end every day with no money in wallet having given it all to beggars etc…it pretty much didn’t work primarily because I’d have 2 or 3 new pairs of shoes bought for me every so often and I wanted to confront my parents about it (“I’m trying to lead a life of poverty here do you mind?”)and then I discovered when I had no money in my bank acount and for Christmas I got a fair amount that I liked getting money…alot, and that was then end of my “poverty” phase…
I will just pay attention to UR drawings and not UR history.Thanks for making a Difference.