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cartoon: hellish conference
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My name is David Hayward, and I am the nakedpastor. I am a graffiti artist on the walls of religion.
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Great one!
The hellishness of such debate is the essence of hell itself, if it does exist. Religious rivalry is my personal definition of hell having tried to argue my way out of religious bondage. I’ve discovered that when one gives up the ‘battle’ at the level of concept then the chains fall off in a Zen type manner.
david – this is very humorous. even tho the subject is, well, hell. it’s very funny! : )
This should scare the hell out of ya!
I went to a conference with the organisation to which the church I work for belongs. All the attendees were staying in the same hotel, and one morning, as I got in the elevator to get to the Lower Level for my coffee before the meetings, a bunch of other people got on, too. Evidently everyone was going to the Lower Level because as each person got in the elevator, they looked at the wall panel and no one pressed any other button than the one which was illuminated. One of the church ladies looked around after the door closed and said, with a brilliant smile, “Look at that! We’re all going to ‘L’!”
I came across something disturbing the other day. At least, it came across that way to me. I was checking out a Christian writer’s blog. The person is pretty liberal – written a couple of books about the dangers of fundamentalism – and a question was opened up to readers of the blog to comment on. “Is Anne Frank in hell?” Well, I couldn’t believe some of the responses. People actually said yes she is in hell at this very moment because she was Jewish and never accepted Jesus christ into her heart. Never mind that she was a young girl, hidden away from the Nazis, her youth stolen from her, her right to attend school taken from her, and then carted off to Belsen, to die there of malnutrition at the age of fifteen, separated from her parents who also died in horrific ways.
My heart still bleeds for that little girl as I recall reading “The Diary of Anne Frank” when I was a teenager. The God I believe in would never allow, let alone send, a child like that to a place like hell. Why do we feel the need to even ask such a question as was posted on that blog? What is wrong with our hearts? Are we so lacking in understanding and intelligence and simple common sense that we cling to these old fashioned Christian views? No wonder non-christians these days find little compelling in our faith to entice them to want to follow it.
It was pure hell for me to believe in hell and defend that belief… but it has been hell trying to drop my belief in hell too. Its defenders (once me) don’t seem to let you out of hell without a fight.
But to me, the battle to dispel that hateful notion of God’s horrific punishment of humanity is well worth the peace and freedom that results, not only in my life but in the lives of people who are tormented by just thinking about hell.
i told a friend once that if God couldn’t figure out a way to save people from hell (in the traditional sense) then he could hand his divinity over to me and i’d figure out a way pretty quick. i’d forgive them and change their hearts…this friend quickly decided i was on my way to hell for my arrogance and blasphemy! ha ha ha
So, Scott, does that mean that Anne Frank had something terrible to repent of that would require you to forgive her and save her from hell? Just asking. Yet, what you said about being able to change people’s hearts makes sense. If I was God, I would certainly do that. I wouldn’t allow anyone to be evil in the first place, then there would be no suffering, and no need for repentance. No need for hell. Oh, well, just wishful thinking on my part….Crystal.
I thought for a long time I was the only Chritian who just couldn’t believe the traditional concept of hell and our interpritation of the bible. Thanks for all your thoughts.I have been struggling with this for more than 20 years, maybe more like pondering. Inside I feel a deep conviction that it is all going to be ok, we are so limited in our understanding of God we just have to trust and follow our own little ringing bell …if it rings true ….
I still don’t know much church history, but I’ve slowly gathered that a lot of what is believed now is not the same as what was believed in the beginning or the Middle Ages, etc. I know I’ve heard several times that our picture of hell comes more from Dante than the Bible.
I grew up in fundamentalism, where they relish the idea of hell and God’s enemies going there. I’ve also heard Calvinists explain that it enhances God’s glory in saving the Elect to have everybody else burning away in hell.
Crystal, people cling to these views cause they believe the Bible is God’s Holy Word. So whatever it says, or whatever they interpret it to say-well, tough stuff for us if we’d like God to be different. In their mind, the Bible says it and God knows what he’s doing, and we are out of line to even question him. It’s all about the Bible.
Lynn, church history is also full of lies about God. That I know for certain, so I’m back to the beginning with my faith. I’m starting out as for the first time. I’ve had it up to here with what I’ve been led to believe so far. Not all of it was bad, but I have to filter the whole lot and only center on what is true or I will give up on God for good.
I’ve almost finished Darin Hufford’s book “The Misunderstood God” and I thoroughly recommend it to all on this blog. He lists as chapters fifteen attributes of God and call them all lies. Not one of them can be true because LOVE cancels them all out, and surely God is a god of love.
I think I’ve known this for a long time, but have allowed myself to be sucked in to the religious dogma that claims God to be so complicated that he is impossible to ever understand. He is fickle and jealous and angry most of the time and we have to pussy foot around him in case he decides to chuck us into that hell we keep being threatened with. I’m gradually feeling more secure about not believing all that crap. Darin’s book has helped me alot, so thanks to whoever on this blog put me onto it – I think it was Preacher Lady, but I’m not sure. Can’t go through all the past posts to find out…Crystal.
Crystal,
That book sounds like an interesting approach to things-listing God’s attributes and how they can’t possibly coexist.
I think with the God is Love thing, the problem there is defining the word love. To use an extreme example, the Westboro Baptist people know their Bible backwards and forwards and sideways. They would agree with you that God is love, yet their definition of love would be very different from ours OR that love only applies to some people or especially to some people. They are Calvinists, and Calvinists have an answer for all of it, trust me.
But as far as church history, I need to learn much more. Churches do want to control people, and they do want your money. And they do enjoy speaking for God.
I think I’m sorta where you are in that I hope if there is a God, he’s nicer and smarter than the Bible God. I hope he is a God of the kind of love that does not send anybody to hell and didn’t create one to begin with.
To be honest, I think I was better off before I went to a Calvinist church. The fundies were darned annoying, but at least they gave you some hope.
The Prodigal Prophet said:
“…Religious rivalry is my personal definition of hell having tried to argue my way out of religious bondage. I’ve discovered that when one gives up the ‘battle’ at the level of concept then the chains fall off in a Zen type manner.”
Ironic how my making this very comment, you are doing the same thing that you define as hellish. Everyone is in religious bondage except you. Your way works better than theirs. Hence, you are creating rivalry by comparing yourself to “religious” folk.