@Lynn, “I’ve never understood how Christians are going to want to all be together for ETERNITY, when they can’t stand each other here on Earth.”
Hilarious.
As a former Muslim AND Christian, I’d have to say that from a male point of view, the Muslim heaven is much better. I’d be so busy with well…you know..that I wouldn’t CARE who else was in heaven.
Botticelliwoman
January 18, 2011 | 8:21 am
I don’t want to wait for everybody else….when I’m in, let the rejoicing commence!
Lynn
January 18, 2011 | 8:34 am
TGM,
Yeah, I think Mark Twain found it curious that the one thing people really enjoy doing was not part of the Christian heaven. Made no sense to him!
Nancy T.
January 18, 2011 | 8:39 am
Oh, and it is WE not I, but ‘WE’ is ONLY the elect! ;> (no Scots background here!)
@Lynn
Joining TGM in in the ‘…when they can’t stand each other on Earth’.
@Dave
On the same note as Lynn’s comment, can’t you just seem some going up to God, and whispering in his ear that he’s made a mistake because Mrs. Muckingfuch really shouldn’t have got in? I mean, we don’t want the reputation of Heaven being tarnished with her here.
Lynn
January 18, 2011 | 8:47 am
Dave,
lol-I never thot of that-how you could be up there looking around and being astonished at who made it and who didn’t. Could be some unpleasant surprises.
Kirsten Mebust
January 18, 2011 | 11:06 am
It’s possible there’ll be a separate room in heaven (with the shades drawn and the door closed) for people who don’t want to know anyone else is there. Just sayin’.
Daniel: Did you know that Origen, the early church father, believed that all things would be reconciled to God, including Satan and the fallen angels. It was rejected as heresy. But he believed it.
I’m not sure how anyone could rejoice in a heaven that excludes people. Wouldn’t they miss their own loved ones at least? I imagine it would make it mighty heartbreaking to get to close to anyone who wasn’t a “believer.”
Or maybe that’s why Christians are generally so disconnected. I wouldn’t blame them if they didn’t want to love someone who most likely end up being tormented in hell. That might, gasp, dent their own joy in heaven. Besides, I’m sure God hates the unrepentant too.
Lynn
January 18, 2011 | 2:04 pm
I like happy endings. Hope it all turns out well in the end. I like what you said, Elizabeth K.
I think the whole heaven and hell thing is pretty sick stuff. Surely if there is a god, he’s so much smarter and kinder than all that.
If every one of us is going to heaven, why does God allow evil to continue? Surely, if we are all going to be reconciled, then God should take us now and prevent further evil.
And what is the point of us having the ability to choose God or not choose God? Why give us a choice if we have no choice in the end?
shelly
January 18, 2011 | 3:58 pm
@Daniel: We do have wills, in that we make decisions in our everyday lives. What we don’t have is free will — the ability to act independent of any influence. EVERY choice we make is influenced by something. If man had free will, then God would be rendered impotent.
Who put the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil in the middle of the Garden of Eden so Adam and Eve couldn’t miss it? God did. Who hardened Pharoah’s heart toward Moses and freeing the Israelites? God did. Who put Israel in a spirit of stupor that continues even now (according to Romans)? God did. Who locks people up in stubbornness/disobedience in order to show them mercy? God does. He has to cause opposition to his will to make himself known.
Even Jesus didn’t have free will. Throughout the Gospels, he kept reminding his followers that he was there to do his Father’s will.
We didn’t choose to be born into sin. We didn’t choose our genetic makeup. We didn’t choose where we were born. We didn’t choose our family. We didn’t choose to have Christ die for everyone. Try as we might, we can’t choose not to sin, either.
Not sure where Mark Twain got that idea. Where in the bible does it get specific about that? Might it have anything to do with the tired and false notion that we’re all just disembodied souls floating around in heaven, which is a Gnostic heresy, in turn influenced by Hellenistic philosophy that viewed matter as essentially evil?
On the other hand, Christ’s return to claim his church is symbolized as the consummation of a bridegroom and his bride. We will have new bodies after resurrection; not disembodied souls. Presumably these new physical bodies would include genitals, although I am not certain. The bible depicts existence in heaven as that of “first love” or passion enduring forever. Also, perhaps Mark Twain has not read the Song of Songs, which indulges in erotic imagery. All the clues seem to point in the other direction of the stereotypical understanding of heaven and Christian non_acknowledgement of sexuality.
Lynn
January 19, 2011 | 6:37 am
Hmm. Well, if the church is the bride and Jesus is the bridegroom-interesting stuff comes to mind with that one. I’ve NEVER even considered such. I guess I was taught a tamer version of heaven.
You’d think the Bible would be clearer. The Koran spells out what’s waiting for them up there, right?
As a mother, if you tell your child to “clean up the room or you will not go outside today”, you have not removed the will of your child. You’ve given him a choice. At the moment, he cannot change the fact that the room exists, or that his mother exists and has issued an ultimatum. However, one act is in line with his mother’s wishes, and one is not.
As we can see from the previous example, just because there are things we cannot change, does not mean our will is taken away. The difference is that when we do as God says, we are not only following his wishes, but following truth. God is the truth. He is also reality. When we reject his truth and him (reality) we are saying we want no part of existence. He is not relative to us, but we relative to him. We cannot exist independently of him. He is not the means to our end. He is the end. Heaven is not the goal, God is. To reject him is to reject existence.
If we have no will and do evil things, we could no longer blame ourselves, but God. And he then would not be truth, but a conglomeration of beings each with distinct conflicting personalities. We commit a metaphysical error when we say we have no free will. Either there are multiple conflicting realities or there is one reality. And since Jesus said that “I am the way, the truth, and the life”, we can rule out multiple realities. And if you say that Jesus is not God, you are no longer a Christian.
@Daniel,
I’m confused as to where you stand, based on your last few comments. Are you stating that will and free will are identical? Also, would you not agree that an offer you can’t refuse is not much of an offer?
@Daniel, “Then we must redefine “Christian”.”
Actually with your earlier comment (“And if you say that Jesus is not God, you are no longer a Christian.”), you redefined “Christian” on your own terms.
NP is right, starting way back when with Arianism and Ebionitism (spelling?), there have been those who did not believe in the divinity of Jesus, yet still were/are “Christian”.
Daniel: Yes, there is no universally agreeable definition of “Christian”. If someone calls or considers themselves a Christian, then I believe they have that right. Of course this shouldn’t prevent discussion on what it means to be a Christian, etc. I agree with you there. Just like Buddhists. There are many people who consider themselves Buddhist, but at the same time Christian. But there are probably some Buddhists who wouldn’t consider these people Buddhists.
Jesus said,
“Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.”
-and at another time he expressed why this is so-
“That they all may be one; as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be one in us. Every man therefore that has heard, and has learned of the Father, comes unto me. You believe in God, believe also in me.”
-and as John his disciple said-
“As many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name.” John knew this to be so because Jesus said “I AM” just as God in the Old Testament said “I AM”.
We can see from these scriptures, that it’s not enough to be a follower, or a doer. You must be. You must have another existence where you and God are one, as a child adopted into a new family, or as man and wife are one. It’s not enough to follow reality, but to be joined to it, or more specifically, to him. To be joined to the Father is to be joined to the son, and vice versa. This is the essence of what it means to be a Christian. You can “do” the Christian thing and even call yourself a Christian, but to “be” is something quite different.
So, if you are joined to God, being born again into a new existence, then you are a Christian, not just doing Christian things. But, if you say that Jesus is not God, you are in fact rejecting God himself: rejecting reality, truth, existence. For he is one and the same. It is possible to be born again, and to be in ignorance of Jesus’ divinity: for to accept God is to accept Jesus. But to reject Jesus is to reject God is to reject Christianity.
Christine
January 19, 2011 | 1:25 pm
Daniel – On the hell subject:
Wouldn’t the choice to follow God still have meaning, in its own right, even if people weren’t punished eternally for choosing otherwise? Isn’t it the choice itself that is of value? And if that choice is made only on the threat of eternal torment, doesn’t that devalue the choice?
Christine,
I believe your question has a wrong assumption. It assumes that God created heaven and hell to be positive and negative motivators to guide us to a correct decision. This is not the case. The Bible says that hell was not made for humans. Hell was made for the Devil and his angels.
Also, if you believe there is no free will, which I said before was a metaphysical error, then God is to blame for the evil and he should go to hell. We are just the puppets.
That being said, I really don’t have a good answer to your question. I’m still learning. I think some people respond to the “avoidance of hell” theology, but their motive for accepting God is quite selfish. Most people, I think, reject it as unreasonable and have a greater propensity to reject God himself because of people who try to scare others with it.
On the other hand, Heaven as a motivator is more appealing, but it is still quite the selfish motive.
Neither heaven nor hell accomplish what God actually wants, which is for us to be joined with him. God is the best and greatest motivator there is. That we think of heaven and hell before we think of God is tragic. We must begin with the beginning. The most necessary thing to know is the most necessary Being. A finite number joined to an infinite number is lost in infinity. So we must be lost in him, found by him, and subsequently redefined in him.
@Daniel,
The bible doesn’t show a great deal of consistency on many subjects, hell being one of them. Revelation 20:15
Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.
Based on what I’ve seen to date. I’m going to assume that your response will be that this was not a reference to hell.
@The Godless Monster,
Well, yes. The Bible does indicate that death and hell will be cast into the lake of fire. It may mean that those two things (death,hell) will be destroyed. I don’t know. It’s just speculation.
illustrating spiritual paths
Love it! I’ve sung that song so many times!
Two things-I’ve never understood how Christians are going to want to all be together for ETERNITY, when they can’t stand each other here on Earth.
Also I think many people would be mighty disappointed if there’s no hell for lots of other people. Like in sports-if EVERYBODY wins, what fun is that?
It’s the basic crazy-making, HYPOCRITICAL world of Christianity. I’m sure it did me SOME good, but also MUCH harm.
@Lynn,
“I’ve never understood how Christians are going to want to all be together for ETERNITY, when they can’t stand each other here on Earth.”
Hilarious.
As a former Muslim AND Christian, I’d have to say that from a male point of view, the Muslim heaven is much better. I’d be so busy with well…you know..that I wouldn’t CARE who else was in heaven.
I don’t want to wait for everybody else….when I’m in, let the rejoicing commence!
TGM,
Yeah, I think Mark Twain found it curious that the one thing people really enjoy doing was not part of the Christian heaven. Made no sense to him!
Oh, and it is WE not I, but ‘WE’ is ONLY the elect! ;> (no Scots background here!)
@Lynn
Joining TGM in in the ‘…when they can’t stand each other on Earth’.
@Dave
On the same note as Lynn’s comment, can’t you just seem some going up to God, and whispering in his ear that he’s made a mistake because Mrs. Muckingfuch really shouldn’t have got in? I mean, we don’t want the reputation of Heaven being tarnished with her here.
Dave,
lol-I never thot of that-how you could be up there looking around and being astonished at who made it and who didn’t. Could be some unpleasant surprises.
It’s possible there’ll be a separate room in heaven (with the shades drawn and the door closed) for people who don’t want to know anyone else is there. Just sayin’.
I don’t think the Satanists will make it there.
Daniel: Did you know that Origen, the early church father, believed that all things would be reconciled to God, including Satan and the fallen angels. It was rejected as heresy. But he believed it.
Why did he believe it? There are plenty of verses that say otherwise.
Here is a list of over 600 scriptures that confirm the reconciliation of all things:
http://haroldlovelace.com/lovelacelist.php
I’m not sure how anyone could rejoice in a heaven that excludes people. Wouldn’t they miss their own loved ones at least? I imagine it would make it mighty heartbreaking to get to close to anyone who wasn’t a “believer.”
Or maybe that’s why Christians are generally so disconnected. I wouldn’t blame them if they didn’t want to love someone who most likely end up being tormented in hell. That might, gasp, dent their own joy in heaven. Besides, I’m sure God hates the unrepentant too.
I like happy endings. Hope it all turns out well in the end. I like what you said, Elizabeth K.
I think the whole heaven and hell thing is pretty sick stuff. Surely if there is a god, he’s so much smarter and kinder than all that.
I can’t resist. Here’s another video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1chMywKgko
If every one of us is going to heaven, why does God allow evil to continue? Surely, if we are all going to be reconciled, then God should take us now and prevent further evil.
And what is the point of us having the ability to choose God or not choose God? Why give us a choice if we have no choice in the end?
@Daniel: We do have wills, in that we make decisions in our everyday lives. What we don’t have is free will — the ability to act independent of any influence. EVERY choice we make is influenced by something. If man had free will, then God would be rendered impotent.
Who put the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil in the middle of the Garden of Eden so Adam and Eve couldn’t miss it? God did. Who hardened Pharoah’s heart toward Moses and freeing the Israelites? God did. Who put Israel in a spirit of stupor that continues even now (according to Romans)? God did. Who locks people up in stubbornness/disobedience in order to show them mercy? God does. He has to cause opposition to his will to make himself known.
Even Jesus didn’t have free will. Throughout the Gospels, he kept reminding his followers that he was there to do his Father’s will.
We didn’t choose to be born into sin. We didn’t choose our genetic makeup. We didn’t choose where we were born. We didn’t choose our family. We didn’t choose to have Christ die for everyone. Try as we might, we can’t choose not to sin, either.
http://www.goodnewsaboutgod.com/studies/freewill2.htm
martinzender.com/Zenderature/free_will_and_the_oh_well_creed.htm
you could of sold a lot of these at the church i grew up at as a kid
NakedPastor strikes hard with the mighty Truth-hammer once again.
My own favorite line:
The Rapture must have already happened. What’s more, I am still here…
@ Lynn
Not sure where Mark Twain got that idea. Where in the bible does it get specific about that? Might it have anything to do with the tired and false notion that we’re all just disembodied souls floating around in heaven, which is a Gnostic heresy, in turn influenced by Hellenistic philosophy that viewed matter as essentially evil?
On the other hand, Christ’s return to claim his church is symbolized as the consummation of a bridegroom and his bride. We will have new bodies after resurrection; not disembodied souls. Presumably these new physical bodies would include genitals, although I am not certain. The bible depicts existence in heaven as that of “first love” or passion enduring forever. Also, perhaps Mark Twain has not read the Song of Songs, which indulges in erotic imagery. All the clues seem to point in the other direction of the stereotypical understanding of heaven and Christian non_acknowledgement of sexuality.
Hmm. Well, if the church is the bride and Jesus is the bridegroom-interesting stuff comes to mind with that one. I’ve NEVER even considered such. I guess I was taught a tamer version of heaven.
You’d think the Bible would be clearer. The Koran spells out what’s waiting for them up there, right?
@Shelly
As a mother, if you tell your child to “clean up the room or you will not go outside today”, you have not removed the will of your child. You’ve given him a choice. At the moment, he cannot change the fact that the room exists, or that his mother exists and has issued an ultimatum. However, one act is in line with his mother’s wishes, and one is not.
As we can see from the previous example, just because there are things we cannot change, does not mean our will is taken away. The difference is that when we do as God says, we are not only following his wishes, but following truth. God is the truth. He is also reality. When we reject his truth and him (reality) we are saying we want no part of existence. He is not relative to us, but we relative to him. We cannot exist independently of him. He is not the means to our end. He is the end. Heaven is not the goal, God is. To reject him is to reject existence.
If we have no will and do evil things, we could no longer blame ourselves, but God. And he then would not be truth, but a conglomeration of beings each with distinct conflicting personalities. We commit a metaphysical error when we say we have no free will. Either there are multiple conflicting realities or there is one reality. And since Jesus said that “I am the way, the truth, and the life”, we can rule out multiple realities. And if you say that Jesus is not God, you are no longer a Christian.
Daniel: Did you know there are and have been many people who do not believe in the divinity of Jesus who consider or call themselves Christians?
Then we must redefine “Christian”.
@Daniel,
I’m confused as to where you stand, based on your last few comments. Are you stating that will and free will are identical? Also, would you not agree that an offer you can’t refuse is not much of an offer?
@Daniel,
“Then we must redefine “Christian”.”
Actually with your earlier comment (“And if you say that Jesus is not God, you are no longer a Christian.”), you redefined “Christian” on your own terms.
NP is right, starting way back when with Arianism and Ebionitism (spelling?), there have been those who did not believe in the divinity of Jesus, yet still were/are “Christian”.
Daniel: Yes, there is no universally agreeable definition of “Christian”. If someone calls or considers themselves a Christian, then I believe they have that right. Of course this shouldn’t prevent discussion on what it means to be a Christian, etc. I agree with you there. Just like Buddhists. There are many people who consider themselves Buddhist, but at the same time Christian. But there are probably some Buddhists who wouldn’t consider these people Buddhists.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman
Jesus said,
“Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.”
-and at another time he expressed why this is so-
“That they all may be one; as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be one in us. Every man therefore that has heard, and has learned of the Father, comes unto me. You believe in God, believe also in me.”
-and as John his disciple said-
“As many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name.” John knew this to be so because Jesus said “I AM” just as God in the Old Testament said “I AM”.
We can see from these scriptures, that it’s not enough to be a follower, or a doer. You must be. You must have another existence where you and God are one, as a child adopted into a new family, or as man and wife are one. It’s not enough to follow reality, but to be joined to it, or more specifically, to him. To be joined to the Father is to be joined to the son, and vice versa. This is the essence of what it means to be a Christian. You can “do” the Christian thing and even call yourself a Christian, but to “be” is something quite different.
So, if you are joined to God, being born again into a new existence, then you are a Christian, not just doing Christian things. But, if you say that Jesus is not God, you are in fact rejecting God himself: rejecting reality, truth, existence. For he is one and the same. It is possible to be born again, and to be in ignorance of Jesus’ divinity: for to accept God is to accept Jesus. But to reject Jesus is to reject God is to reject Christianity.
Daniel – On the hell subject:
Wouldn’t the choice to follow God still have meaning, in its own right, even if people weren’t punished eternally for choosing otherwise? Isn’t it the choice itself that is of value? And if that choice is made only on the threat of eternal torment, doesn’t that devalue the choice?
Christine,
I believe your question has a wrong assumption. It assumes that God created heaven and hell to be positive and negative motivators to guide us to a correct decision. This is not the case. The Bible says that hell was not made for humans. Hell was made for the Devil and his angels.
Also, if you believe there is no free will, which I said before was a metaphysical error, then God is to blame for the evil and he should go to hell. We are just the puppets.
That being said, I really don’t have a good answer to your question. I’m still learning. I think some people respond to the “avoidance of hell” theology, but their motive for accepting God is quite selfish. Most people, I think, reject it as unreasonable and have a greater propensity to reject God himself because of people who try to scare others with it.
On the other hand, Heaven as a motivator is more appealing, but it is still quite the selfish motive.
Neither heaven nor hell accomplish what God actually wants, which is for us to be joined with him. God is the best and greatest motivator there is. That we think of heaven and hell before we think of God is tragic. We must begin with the beginning. The most necessary thing to know is the most necessary Being. A finite number joined to an infinite number is lost in infinity. So we must be lost in him, found by him, and subsequently redefined in him.
@Daniel,
The bible doesn’t show a great deal of consistency on many subjects, hell being one of them.
Revelation 20:15
Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.
Based on what I’ve seen to date. I’m going to assume that your response will be that this was not a reference to hell.
@The Godless Monster,
Well, yes. The Bible does indicate that death and hell will be cast into the lake of fire. It may mean that those two things (death,hell) will be destroyed. I don’t know. It’s just speculation.
@Daniel,
Have you ever one wondered why this deity didn’t just make things simple to understand and follow?
Correction: “one” should be “once”…sorry.