Haha! – very good, David. Makes an apt point about the difference between well-intended tolerance and true inclusion….
June Melanson
February 4, 2010 | 12:16 pm
Not quite sure your purpose for this cartoon. Does it mean that being gay is ok?
larry p
February 4, 2010 | 1:10 pm
@June Melanson
Being gay is just something some people *are*. I understand that a lot of church people have been taught otherwise, but such teaching isn’t based on reality of the fact that gay people were indeed born gay. Such teaching is also based on much false witness, such as the claim that being gay and being a pedophile are one and the same thing. The so-called scriptural basis for saying gay people aren’t ok is mostly based on a very few readings taken out-of context with added interpretations that aren’t in the text at all. For example, the story of Sodom and Gomorrah is very clearly about rape, not about gay people.
The church once also taught that being left-handed was wrong. Something about the sins of the tribe of Benjamin. I know that sounds ridiculous today, but not all that long ago, my father was forced to learn to write right-handed so that his character wouldn’t display the taint of left-handness.
What is not ok is to hold against people some characteristic over which they have no control. What is also not ok is the false witness many church people bear against their gay brothers and sisters, although I’m sure much of that arises out of ignorance rather than malice.
I think the point of the cartoon is to point out that, while many churches claim to “welcome all”, the welcome toward gay people is only for those in the closet. This means that gay people can never participate fully in church life, they can only watch from the “shelter” of their closet.
The church would be better served if it focused on issues frequently and clearly articulated in scripture, like justice for example.
fishon
February 4, 2010 | 1:18 pm
I understand that a lot of church people have been taught otherwise, but such teaching isn’t based on reality of the fact that _____ people were indeed born _____. Just fill in the blanks.
fishon
bob
February 4, 2010 | 2:27 pm
Good points larry p.
I don’t keep up with the studies that indicate that some people are born gay…or at least born with the propensity to become gay, but I don’t know how else to explain why some adult males will say that they knew they were attracted to the same sex when they were in elementary school.
What I find intriguing, and rather pathetic, is why the “sin” of gayness gets so much more attention than, say, the “sin” of overeating, or the “sin” of breaking the speed limit. I mean, the US is ripe with over weight Baptist ministers who lecture on the sin of homosexuality on Sunday morning, then stuff their pie-hole on Sunday afternoon. Isn’t there a name for that mentality?
From my perspective, the perspective of reason, the person who will break the posted speed limit on the way to church (I see this behavior consistently on Sundays as they whiz past me only to turn into the church parking lot), which would be a “sin” would it not, has absolutely no business looking furtively at a gay person.
Then there are the dolts who will say that being gay is not as bad as being a “practicing” gay. I wonder if that is like being an adulterer “in your heart” which of course is not as bad as being a “practicing” adulterer…right?
I have often felt very sorry for the discrimination that gays experience until I became an atheist. We are even farther down the list of whom Christians consider trustworthy.
Laura
February 4, 2010 | 3:11 pm
oh, I thought the point of the cartoon was that gay people can now go be spectators while just a few people “play” at church like everyone else is.
gee…lucky them
Joey
February 4, 2010 | 5:47 pm
It’s funny how often one hears in the church, “Hate the sin, but love the sinner”. The church has the hating part down, but not the loving the sinner (unconditionally) down!. Another one that is often heard is, “God made Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve”. Whenever I hear that, I have to wonder, but then who made Steve…?
fishon
February 4, 2010 | 6:24 pm
but then who made Steve…?
——-the same God that made joe the thief; betty the prostitute; jill the gossip; frank the murderer; bubba the serial rapist. God didn’t make them to do and be those things, just like he didn’t make steve to be a gay. They all choose to be….
fishon
It see this attitude a lot – in fact the worse one I see is you can come but you need to not show any affection to each other because that makes us uncomfortable, we prefer to pretend you are not really gay. And we wonder why our churches are full of intolerance and hypocrisy.
Hi Everyone. Thanks for the comments. Any gay person can go to any church, as long as they remain in their closet. Some gays can go to some churches not in the closet, but definitely not practicing. Some gays can go to some churches not in the closet and practicing. But very few gays can go to a church not in the closet and practicing and totally participate and contribute meaningfully to the life of the community. This is more the issue I was addressing in the cartoon.
larry p
February 4, 2010 | 11:39 pm
I’m sorry, Fishon, but however much you would like to think that being gay is a choice, you are incorrect. People do not wake up one day and decide to be gay. There is no scientific evidence that people do this. Your wishing something be so does not make it so. I will try to provide you some references tomorrow.
I also read from your post that you are saying that being gay is pretty much equivalent to being a serial rapist, a murder, a prostitute and a thief. Your doing this is a form of false witness towards gay people. The fact of a person’s being gay, does not make him or her a sociopath who is a danger to society.
Most gay people aren’t a whole lot different from you or me, they are just intrinsically attracted to _some_ members of their own sex rather than to _some_ members of the opposite sex. You and I can’t much help who attracts us, and neither can gay people.
Fishon, why don’t you try actually talking to some gay people? I’d be curious to hear how many “choose” to be hated, maligned, denied jobs, denied the thousand benefits of legal marriage, bashed to death and told time and again that they will burn in hell. It strikes me odd people would “choose” that.
Doesn’t it strike you odd?
fishon
February 5, 2010 | 12:34 am
larry p said, on February 4th, 2010 at 11:39 pm
I’m sorry, Fishon, but however much you would like to think that being gay is a choice, you are incorrect. People do not wake up one day and decide to be gay. There is no scientific evidence that people do this. Your wishing something be so does not make it so. I will try to provide you some references tomorrow.
———-I look forward to your references.
I also read from your post that you are saying that being gay is pretty much equivalent to being a serial rapist, a murder, a prostitute and a thief. Your doing this is a form of false witness towards gay people.
———-You kinda pick and chose there, Larry, your forgot I also said ‘gossip.’ By the way, Larry, my daughter was a prostitute and a thief.
The fact of a person’s being gay, does not make him or her a sociopath who is a danger to society.
———Sin is sin, Larry, whether a sociopath or not.
I was a drunk at one time. Now some drunks are a danger to society, and some drunks are not———still sin, either way.
Most gay people aren’t a whole lot different from you or me, they are just intrinsically attracted to _some_ members of their own sex rather than to _some_ members of the opposite sex. You and I can’t much help who attracts us, and neither can gay people.
——–Ok, Larry, what you going do with the hundreds of thousands of men who are attacted, and can’t help it, to 12 years and younger girls? According to you and others, it would be barbaric to make praticing homosexuality against the law again because it is their nature, they are born that way. So what you going do, Larry, lock all the guys away who just follow their natural born attaction to the little ones? They can’t help it if they are born that way.
fishon
fishon
February 5, 2010 | 12:44 am
Cecilia said, on February 4th, 2010 at 11:39 pm
Fishon, why don’t you try actually talking to some gay people? I’d be curious to hear how many “choose” to be hated, maligned, denied jobs, denied the thousand benefits of legal marriage, bashed to death and told time and again that they will burn in hell. It strikes me odd people would “choose” that.
Doesn’t it strike you odd?
—————Cecilia, doesn’t it strike you as odd that there are millions of folk who CHOOSE to destroy their life and the lives of their loved ones by living in the twilight zone of drugs and booze. I would be curious to hear how many “choose” to go to jail, loose their families, put strangers in danger when they are behind the wheel. All of them, Cecilia; I know, I was one of them. As you asked, “Doesn’t it strike you as odd?”
By the way, you assume too much when you intimate that I haven’t or don’t take to gays.
fishon
preacherlady
February 5, 2010 | 1:11 am
Jerry…here you go again…homosexuality and pedophelia ARE NOT in the same class at all. One of the reasons that people assume you don’t talk to gays is that you live in an isolated part of the country. You may know one or two…lets see…statistically there should be 27 homosexuals in your town and I’m sure most of them leave as soon as they’re out. I could set up a meeting here in the city and attract more gay people than there are people in your town and then I’d still have a small cross section of the city’s gay population. And even if it were as bad as you claim your whole attitude about how to confront sin is pretty harsh…we might catch the fish but its up to God to clean them. If I had made an altar call and someone then decided to tell me everything that was wrong with me I would have bolted out of the church. And you mention your daughter having been a prostitute and a theif…those are not the same as if she fell in love with a woman.
fishon
February 5, 2010 | 2:28 am
preacherlady said, on February 5th, 2010 at 1:11 am
Jerry…here you go again…homosexuality and pedophelia ARE NOT in the same class at all.
———-Now Alice, you know very well what I was saying. Larry P said:they are just intrinsically attracted to _some_ members of their own sex rather than to _some_ members of the opposite sex. You and I can’t much help who attracts us, and neither can gay people.
————-And my point way, thousands of men can not help being attracted to little girls. So, to use the argument that being ‘intrinsically attracted’ is NOT a defense for sin. Come on, Alice, you are way smarter than I am, but I ain’t no dummy. You are trying to change my argument——why, cause you or Larry have no good argument against what I pointed out.
You may know one or two…lets see…statistically there should be 27 homosexuals in your town and I’m sure most of them leave as soon as they’re out. I could set up a meeting here in the city and attract more gay people than there are people in your town and then I’d still have a small cross section of the city’s gay population.
———And your point, Alice? Hey Alice, I bet I know more Salmon poachers and big game poachers, personally, than there are living in Chicago—–so what does that prove?
And you mention your daughter having been a prostitute and a theif…those are not the same as if she fell in love with a woman.
———–Would be if she had sex with her.
jerry
preacherlady
February 5, 2010 | 3:32 am
ok, Jerry…I’ll leave your salmon poachers alone and you leave my homosexuals alone, deal? Alice
Baruch60610
February 5, 2010 | 6:44 am
You know how to find out if being gay is a choice or not? Ask a gay person. It’s not a choice.
There isn’t likely to be any scientific evidence that homosexuality is a congenital or involuntarily acquired trait. And if there were, whoever chose to could easily dismiss the research as being funded by gays, or conducted by homosexual scientists, or whatever. No matter how much evidence is offered, it is always possible to insist on more, or more convincing evidence.
But just ask a gay person, and you’ll find out that it’s not a choice.
I can’t imagine anyone sitting around thinking to themselves: “Gee, I wonder whether I should choose to be straight, which is considered normal and acceptable; or perhaps choose to be gay, which is roundly condemned by a large percentage of otherwise intelligent people, considered a sin by many churches, was once illegal in most states, will likely result in my being shunned, abused, ridiculed, abandoned, abused, and beaten – possibly killed; will deny me many rights and advantages available to married people; may cost me jobs; and which in general will set me outside of society, marginalized and ostracized. Hmm… decisions, decisions…”
Oh, yeah. And then to abide by this decision, and face a lifetime of this abuse, without ever figuring, “Gee, maybe I should give this up and go straight. This is too much trouble”. They never seem to do that, despite all the horrors they face, the humiliation and heartbreak at being hated for who they are.
I never chose to be straight. That’s just how I turned out. I’m glad it turned out this way, because if it hadn’t, many people would hate me, and it wouldn’t even be my fault.
Homosexuality is not a choice. If it were a choice, it still wouldn’t be a sin.
fat radical
February 5, 2010 | 8:03 am
So NP, is it ok in your book to be an openly practicing homosexual & a full paid up member of your local church, just so I am not missing the point here?
fat radical: what my cartoon is wrestling with is this: is this even possible? are we even willing to wrestle with this? or do we just black-and-white say no, not possible? is that any clearer?
“a full paid up member of your local church” (fat radical)….that’s revealing
Mike
February 5, 2010 | 1:12 pm
It seems that the whole concept of choice is somewhat lost in these kind of arguments. One says X is a choice the other says it is not – evidenced by the fact that no one would “choose” to be maligned, etc. What I wonder about is the idea that so many of our “choices” in life are not simple, decided, conscious, volitional acts, that is, it seems to me that a person moves toward and away from many things for reasons which are unclear to that person. This does not mean that choice is not involved per se, it simply means that choice is at the very least, a amalgamation of a great many things churning beneath the surface of one’s life. If we are volitional creatures by nature, then we must begin to struggle with the concept of choice as more than simply a conscious, “I woke up one day and decided” sort of thing. The concept of choice must run far deeper than we typically allow for.
fishon
February 5, 2010 | 1:53 pm
preacherlady said, on February 5th, 2010 at 3:32 am
ok, Jerry…I’ll leave your salmon poachers alone and you leave my homosexuals alone, deal? Alice
——-Nope.
jerry
fishon
February 5, 2010 | 2:15 pm
Baruch60610 said, on February 5th, 2010 at 6:44 am
You know how to find out if being gay is a choice or not? Ask a gay person. It’s not a choice.
—————You know how to find out if a woman teacher having sex with her students is a choice or not? Ask Debra Beasley LaFave, Mary Kay Letourneau–it’s not a choice.
fishon
John
February 5, 2010 | 2:17 pm
Just some thoughts:
I am a man who is both Christian and gay. I did not choose to be gay, and as some of the posters here point out, there is nothing attractive or desirable about being humiliated, bullied and called names I didn’t even understand until I got older. Apparently, I wore my gayness on my sleeve so that others could see.
And so I have heard people like Fishon many times in my life, both in and out of the church. I’m still in the process of absolutely believeing the promises of the Word are really for me despite my gayness. In fact, my gayness was the cliff edge for me in deciding whether to give my heart to Christ many years ago; the fellow who led me to Christ said no sin was greater than the blood of Jesus, and so I had to give in to His love, no matter what judgement I put on myself because of the curses I had received from those who hate gays.
My experience has told me that the Living God has held nothing back from me despite my brokeness. I have given and received prophetic words, and seen miracles from God worked out through me. Even me. Is being gay a sin? Maybe. Is being human sinless? Nope. Can I pretend I’m not gay? Maybe. Does it stop me from being Gay? Nope.
I have had many, many hours of counseling, almost all of it Christian, and nothing cured me. In fact, I have come to realize that there is NOTHING in my life, Fishon, that is worse or better than anything in yours. If acting out my gayness is sin, then I’ll live with that until the Holy Creator and I work out something different. I know this: my gayness is not a wall between the love of God and me, nor is my salvation through Christ compromised any more that it is with any other human. God is my judge. I’m pretty sure most in the Church are wrong on this issue; that is, being gay and not closeted, is worse than everybody else’s daily sin.
I am loved and accepted by my pastor, who knows I’m gay, and by my children, who know I’m gay. I am welcome to pray with others and help lead worship in my church. I am thankful that I, unlike many thousands before me, did not have well-meaning Christians successfully turn me away from the Cross.
The issue really is relationship with the Creator. I am welcome to figure mine out in my church and be gay. I haven’t yet held hands with a male partner yet in church, but as soon as I get one, I’m going to try that out! Trying to find an out Christian gay partner is like trying to spot Nessy in the lochs of Scotland. But then I digress.
And by the way, Fishon, nothing personal in my remarks referencing what you’ve said here. You’re certainly not alone in your point of view, and there’s strength in numbers, so all is well. But for me, gay is not just a concept or a point to argue over; it has been somewhere near the center of my life in and out of the church almost my entire life. As a friend of mine said recently, God’s law does not supercede the purpose of Christ’s death in setting us free of sin, daily or otherwise, including being gay. I think there’s something in the Bible about that too.
fishon
February 5, 2010 | 2:17 pm
fat radical said, on February 5th, 2010 at 8:03 am
So NP, is it ok in your book to be an openly practicing homosexual & a full paid up member of your local church, just so I am not missing the point here?
———–You will find that the Nakedpastor, ain’t quite so naked with some questions.
fishon
fishon
February 5, 2010 | 2:21 pm
nakedpastor said, on February 5th, 2010 at 8:15 am
fat radical: what my cartoon is wrestling with is this: is this even possible? are we even willing to wrestle with this? or do we just black-and-white say no, not possible? is that any clearer?
———-couple of things, NP. You are not being Naked with fat radical. And you answer questions at times that are far astry from your writing or cartoon point. Seems like a pretty straightforward question from fat radical.
fishon
Fishon, I would guess by your numerous comments that you lack tolerance, grace and love for any who are different from you. The attitude you have towards gays is all too prevalent in the church. All too often, the church is a place where if you do not say & act like everyone else, you are ostracized. God made us individuals with individual giftings and personalities. Our individuality should be embraced. We would ALL change something about another, but how much more Christ-like to love unconditionally and embrace, without reservation those who desire to worship with others our Lord and Saviour. Most of the invisible, emotional scars I carry are those inflicted by fellow believers.
I have not been to church (other than when visiting a Christian friend, in another town when they go) for 15 years, since I was spiritually abused in a “Christian” organization for 12 years. I do still read the Word and spend time in prayer daily. I am gay, but that is not the reason I suffered their abuse. There were many others in the organization who not only left the cult, but left God behind as well. I am sure there are churches where I live in Honolulu who honour Christ and treat others as God intended, but I am not willing to subject myself to more possible abuse to find one.
A year ago, I was diagnosed with cancer and was told by my dear, christian mother than now is the time I needed a church family. All I could think of was how I was treated by that same dysfunctional family before the cancer. There was no reason I would be drawn to them now! When I had surgery for my cancer last March, my brother in Texas who is a fundamentalist “christian” who preaches at how his little group has the Truth & the rest of us need to fall in line with what his church teaches sent me a small note saying he was praying for me before the surgery. There was never another note or call to see how I was after the surgery or through my recent course of radiation.
So who came & cared for me when I was healing from my surgery? My gay brother (who is a pastor) from Chicago & his partner for two weeks. I came across the Nakedpastor when I did a search on Flickr for “spiritual abuse”. His cartoons and comments are so refreshing and healing! If only I knew of a church like his where I live who might accept me, as God does and as the song says, “Just as I Am”. If I went back to any evangelical church I know of here, I could stay in the closet and attend each service with my mask and plastic smile in place or go as myself and know that I would face rejection, gossip or asked to leave just for being the person I know I am since I was a small child.
John
February 5, 2010 | 5:22 pm
Joey: my heart goes out to you today, and though I’m a long way from Honolulu (in Eastern Canada), I walk with you as well.
joey: i’d LOVE to come to Honolulu!!! At least for a while.
fishon
February 5, 2010 | 8:44 pm
Joey said, on February 5th, 2010 at 3:48 pm
Fishon, I would guess by your numerous comments that you lack tolerance, grace and love for any who are different from you.
———You guess wrong. But then, I can’t do much about that.
I don’t think you can find where I said anything bashing, unless you call me that because I say practicing homosexuality is a sin? If so, you surely have a warped understanding of tolerance, grace, and love.
I have not ostracized anyone in my life.
YOU:Our individuality should be embraced.
———–Not if it is sin.
YOU:Christ-like to love unconditionally
———–Christ loves unconditionally; he certainly does not accept unconditionally. If you know anything about the Bible, you know that: Try Matt. 7:23, just for a start.
Joey, a question. If I had visited you and tried to help you with your physical needs while battling cancer, and you found out, after 3 months of me helping you, I was a pastor [I am], and then you asked me the question, do you think practicing gays will go to hell unless repenting and following Jesus, and I told you, “Yes,” what would you do? Tell me to leave? I am very interested in your answer.
fishon
sometimes when we think we are being gracious, in relation to how others are it might appear so, but when compared to God’s grace is shamefully deficient. i think we need to consider that.
“Joey, a question. If I had visited you and tried to help you with your physical needs while battling cancer, and you found out, after 3 months of me helping you, I was a pastor [I am], and then you asked me the question, do you think practicing gays will go to hell unless repenting and following Jesus, and I told you, “Yes,” what would you do? Tell me to leave? I am very interested in your answer.”
Fishon, first of all I would guess that if we were exposed to one another very often for three months, the subject would have come up much sooner by how dogmatic you come across on this subject. Your being a pastor would have nothing to do with it. My father was a pastor and a man, full of grace, love and compassion. I respect pastors, and others who follow Christ who treat others in a Christ-like way. A pastor after God’s heart is one who is humble and a true servant. The title of “pastor” would not score you more or fewer points in my eyes or in the eyes of God.
When sharing Christ with others, I always tell people not to listen to me, just because I say something is true, even though I have read the bible cover to cover about 15 (literally) times, or even take their pastor’s word for it. I encourage people to get in the word, study, pray & seek God for themselves. Our salvation is too important than to trust in another person’s testimony or biblical studies. The closer one gets to knowing the true God of the bible, the more humble they should be. The closer we are to the Master, the more we realize how far we are from being a true reflection of Jesus Christ.
In helping me with my physical needs, though grateful, when compared with Christ’s righteousness, your good works and mine are as filthy rags. (Is. 64:6)
Whilst helping me, if I felt an attitude of condemnation and a judgmental spirit towards me by you, as well as a prideful spirit because of who I am attracted to, it would be in my best interest to not have you in my life (though forgive you). We need people in our lives who will build us up and encourage us as equals in Christ, not those who are self-righteous.
I would then ask, if you are straight, if you’d ever looked upon a woman in lust. If you had, I would remind you that you have committed adultery in your heart (Mt. 5:28) and that we are all in need of a Saviour. It is the Holy Spirit’s job to convict of sin and not your job to try & shame me for being who I am. I would also remind you that the blood of Christ is powerful enough to cleanse us from all unrighteousness (1 Jn. 1:9), no matter what that may be. Your job is, as is mine, to love unconditionally and be the hands, mouth and feet of Jesus in this troubled world.
preacherlady
February 6, 2010 | 1:25 am
Joey…AMEN and AMEN!
Tiggy
February 6, 2010 | 8:20 pm
Sorry to come in so late on this, but I haven’t had Internet access. From what I know, most female prostitutes DO have sex with women, either as part of their work or because they’re so sick of men. I’m not saying y our daughter does, Fishon, but have you asked her or are you just assuming this?
The US government have done extensive experiments with animals where they’ve found roughly one in ten of them (given an equal choice) repeatedly show a sexual preference for the same sex – the animals, not the US government. It seems to be biologically based as related to hormone levels in the womb at the time of the fetus developing.
I would suggest, Fishon, that you don’t know enough about it to make the kind of judgements you do. No one yet knows enough about it.
(Back online in a few days)
Baruch60610
February 8, 2010 | 2:33 am
Fishon, your point about teachers having sex with children is irrelevant. What those teachers are doing is a crime. If they are honest about what they are doing, they will face prison. This is a powerful reason to keep silent or to lie.
What gay people do is not a crime. There is no incentive to lie.
Most of the gay people I ever knew – and I knew a whole lot of them, living in Chicago’s predominately gay area – told me that they didn’t choose their orientation, any more than I chose mine. A few told me that they had been abused by men as children. Perhaps those would have otherwise been straight; and perhaps not.
These people had absolutely no reason to lie to me. I was just a friend. I wasn’t a pastor, or a policeman, an employer, or anyone who could in any way do them harm.
Now, I admit that it is *possible* that just about every gay person in the world lies about whether they chose their orientation. That would be remarkable, since even criminals often admit to their crimes, at least in private. But I suppose there could be some grand gay conspiracy to lie to all the straights.
Still, I think it is much more likely that gay people are just about the same as straight people. I don’t know their hearts any more than I know the hearts of straight people. But I would assume, until I had evidence to the contrary, that if most gays make a statement about their orientation, it is likely to be true.
What you have is a self-fulfilling “prophecy” or belief. Gays are bad, so you can’t believe what they say. When they tell you that they didn’t choose to be gay, they’re lying. Since they’re lying, they are bad people.
Maybe so. But exactly the same logic can be applied to everyone in the world. You could apply it to Christians: Christians are bad people. Therefore, you can’t believe what they tell you. If they tell you they love the Lord, they’re lying. Since they’re lying, they’re bad people.
Or Atheists: Atheists are bad people. Therefore, you can’t believe what they tell you. I they tell you that they don’t just want to fornicate and murder, they’re lying. Since they’re lying, they’re bad people.
The beauty of this sort of circular reasoning is that you can never be proven wrong. The down side is that you’ll never know when you are wrong.
wonderfully written. the grace in your response is a great model for how my own should be, but often just end up being so much less and a lot more polemic.
peace
fat radical
February 8, 2010 | 1:49 pm
Hey, NP, as always you rock dude!
Despite what Fishon says your answer is clear about opening up the debate.
Whilst I find the whole gay scene a turn off there are many more wounded straights inside & outside the church who need to know a heavenly Father who loves & will not abuse them.
Also Faithlessinfatima, exactly what does my question reveal?
fishon
February 8, 2010 | 9:49 pm
Baruch60610 said, on February 8th, 2010 at 2:33 am
Fishon, your point about teachers having sex with children is irrelevant. What those teachers are doing is a crime. If they are honest about what they are doing, they will face prison. This is a powerful reason to keep silent or to lie.
What gay people do is not a crime.
—————Use to be. Just because it isn’t a crime now does not mean it is not a sin according to the Bible.
Being drunk ain’t a crime——–but it is sin.
So your point would be??
What you have is a self-fulfilling “prophecy” or belief.
—————No, I just believe the Bible over what a gay would tell me about why they sin.
Or Atheists: Atheists are bad people. Therefore, you can’t believe what they tell you.
————–You said they were bad, I didn’t.
Nope, I can’t believe what they say the Bible says. And they do try to tell me at times——on this blog.
The beauty of this sort of circular reasoning is that you can never be proven wrong.
————You make this particular debate circular because you choose not to believe the Bible on this subject. The Bible proves me right whether you want to acknowledge it or not.
fishon
preacherlady
February 8, 2010 | 10:04 pm
The bible can be used to prove most anything…for example:
its ok to use your tithes to buy a bottle of booze and drink it at a church conference
its ok to have a concubine
ditto slaves
its an abomination to God to eat shrimp or catfish
And the list goes on…the point is to look at the whole counsel of God, wrap it in Grace and Mercy and love unconditionally without judging or condemning anyone.
preacherlady
February 8, 2010 | 10:14 pm
14:26 And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou…
Thats Deut. 14….that chapter also says not to eat rabbit
Louis Bower-Bannister
February 26, 2010 | 10:19 am
I had a choice about being gay. The choice was to be honest about it to myself and others, and to accept it as a part of what makes me a person created in the vast image and likeness of all God’s creation.
Thanks for this cartoon! It is great in bringing up the issue of what many glbt people feel underneath the veneer of many well meaning congregations who proclaim their doors open to all.
I have been fortunate enough to grow up in a loving and Gospel proclaiming inspired (liberal, many people call it) diocese of the Episcopal Church and have always felt very included in every aspect of my life in the church. I know all too well, however, the great pain that many friends and loved ones have experienced to the contrary.
Sadly it has become, in many denominations, an ‘us or them’ mentality. Can we not realize, all of us, on both sides of the issue (any issue), that Jesus calls us to make room for everyone at the table, for at one time or another we are each the lost sheep.
fat radical
February 26, 2010 | 1:21 pm
OK. Heres what I want to know,why is it that many people feel physically, emotionally & spiritually repulsed by the idea of gay sex. I may get barred for posting this but wasn’t a male penis designed to go into a female vagina for the purpose of procreation/sex rather than a male anus which was designed to expel excrement? I get all the making everyone welcome thing but the notion of gay sex makes me feel physically sick.
Not that I would in any way endorse it but you know there are people who would physically attack gays & call them freaks just because they are gay. Even in this unacceptable expression of rejection is there some core human rationale in there that is saying this type of behavior or life choice is just wrong so stop it or I will make you stop.
grahams
February 26, 2010 | 1:39 pm
What amazes me about Christian fundamentalists is that they do not simply express their personal beliefs about God, but they claim they are actually speaking for God.
There are hundreds of Christian denominations with different traditions and theologies but using the same Bible, and by defending what they call the “plain meaning” of scripture, each will claim that they are speaking for God.
God, who created the entire universe, with all its diversity, and has sovereign knowledge over every minute detail, is much bigger and wiser than our human brains can take in. To claim, after reading the books of the Old and New Testament that we can “fully” understand God’s purposes for this world, in each and every situation, is absurd and outrageous.
The problem with making definitive conclusions from the Bible about the issues we do not understand is that we put ourselves in a situation where we think that we have nothing further to learn. It is the worst type of arrogance possible and totally contrary to Christ’s teaching about humility.
Christine
March 11, 2010 | 1:45 pm
Hey all. I don’t know if anyone is still following this; it’s been awhile since the last post, but here goes.
I want to thank fat radical for putting that out there. No, no sarcasm intended, I really mean it. Thanks for being honest and saying what you’re really thinking. For many who discriminate against gays and lesbians, it’s ultimately about sex and personal repulsion.
That’s something we should think about. We are often repulsed by many things. Only decades ago many Christians would have been repulsed by the thought of an interracial couple having sex. Go back a little further and people were rather put off by the idea of women wearing pants. In parts of the world today, people are repulsed by the thought of eating with their left hand. Many have and had good-sounding rationalizations for feeling that way, about how things were designed or intended to be, but which in hindsight or from a distance seem like pure bigotry and irrationality. Change the viewpoint, the context, and the repulsion is gone. It’s far from being inborn; it’s learned.
That’s why repulsion in itself is not a good reason to condemn something. [Hey Frank - there I go stealing your lines again. ] It may be a reason to examine something, but the question should not be “what’s wrong with this that it repulses me?” but “why does it repulse me? what it is about that something that repulses me? what does that say about that thing? what does that say about me?” That’s not to blame or condemn anyone who finds anything in particular repulsive. We all live in a world where we are constantly exposed to various viewpoints, assumptions, and prejudices. Before making judgements about particular practices, particularly moral judgements about the practices of others, that we have little or no real knowledge of (because let’s face it, how much do straight people really know about what gay or lesbian sex is really like?), we should stop to think about our own experiences, biases and assumptions. A little honest self-reflection could go a long way.
And I know that isn’t the issue for everyone, but it underlies a lot of the discrimination that’s out there. We should be honest about that and what it really means.
fat radical
March 12, 2010 | 12:42 pm
Christine, I left a follow up tag to see if any one would respond even though I was late into the dialog. Thanks for your straight (forgive the pun too) bat back to the balls I threw.
I notice by your name that you are a woman. “Thats so perceptive” I hear you say, but my point is that I find Christian women are more receptive to debate these issues. Why is that?
Also I find in society generally that women are less anti-gay than men. Only the Chandlers & Joeys of this world are fascinated by lesbian sex, & that is seen as funny.
In terms of repulsion/judgement has there ever been a time in world social history when male homosexuality was considered acceptable by men & just as normal as hetro sexuality?
I personally, & I concede that my viewpoint is to an extent learned from my conservative Christian upbringing & influenced by my own sexuality, cannot think other than gay sex between men is unnatural,that is, not as nature & therefore as God intended.
I would love to think otherwise because it would solve a problem, but in all conscience I cannot.
As a Christian I want to treat all men as equal before God, I believe that if Jesus was here today he would definitely associate with gays & be criticised for it, but,like the woman that was caught in adultery, he would not condone what they do.
Christine
March 13, 2010 | 2:14 pm
“In terms of repulsion/judgement has there ever been a time in world social history when male homosexuality was considered acceptable by men & just as normal as hetro sexuality?”
Absolutely. At the risk of oversimplifying a diverse range of views and attitudes over time and geography, it is only our Western culture over the last couple of centuries that has adopted this generally repulsed view of gay sex. Western influence has since spread this to other cultures that had previously been more accepting. Ok, that is definitely an oversimplification, but there is some truth to it. Sufficed to say there are many examples of cultures, more past but some present that were/are generally accepting of homosexual practices as normal and natural. And I would argue that in some places we are going back to a place of cultural tolerance and acceptance. The idea that the repulsion you describe transcends history and culture is not accurate.
“I personally… cannot think other than gay sex between men is unnatural,that is, not as nature & therefore as God intended.”
I really can’t comment without a better understanding of what you mean by “natural”, which could have so many different meanings, and how exactly that relates to what God intends.
illustrating spiritual paths
Haha! – very good, David. Makes an apt point about the difference between well-intended tolerance and true inclusion….
Not quite sure your purpose for this cartoon. Does it mean that being gay is ok?
@June Melanson
Being gay is just something some people *are*. I understand that a lot of church people have been taught otherwise, but such teaching isn’t based on reality of the fact that gay people were indeed born gay. Such teaching is also based on much false witness, such as the claim that being gay and being a pedophile are one and the same thing. The so-called scriptural basis for saying gay people aren’t ok is mostly based on a very few readings taken out-of context with added interpretations that aren’t in the text at all. For example, the story of Sodom and Gomorrah is very clearly about rape, not about gay people.
The church once also taught that being left-handed was wrong. Something about the sins of the tribe of Benjamin. I know that sounds ridiculous today, but not all that long ago, my father was forced to learn to write right-handed so that his character wouldn’t display the taint of left-handness.
What is not ok is to hold against people some characteristic over which they have no control. What is also not ok is the false witness many church people bear against their gay brothers and sisters, although I’m sure much of that arises out of ignorance rather than malice.
I think the point of the cartoon is to point out that, while many churches claim to “welcome all”, the welcome toward gay people is only for those in the closet. This means that gay people can never participate fully in church life, they can only watch from the “shelter” of their closet.
The church would be better served if it focused on issues frequently and clearly articulated in scripture, like justice for example.
I understand that a lot of church people have been taught otherwise, but such teaching isn’t based on reality of the fact that _____ people were indeed born _____. Just fill in the blanks.
fishon
Good points larry p.
I don’t keep up with the studies that indicate that some people are born gay…or at least born with the propensity to become gay, but I don’t know how else to explain why some adult males will say that they knew they were attracted to the same sex when they were in elementary school.
What I find intriguing, and rather pathetic, is why the “sin” of gayness gets so much more attention than, say, the “sin” of overeating, or the “sin” of breaking the speed limit. I mean, the US is ripe with over weight Baptist ministers who lecture on the sin of homosexuality on Sunday morning, then stuff their pie-hole on Sunday afternoon. Isn’t there a name for that mentality?
From my perspective, the perspective of reason, the person who will break the posted speed limit on the way to church (I see this behavior consistently on Sundays as they whiz past me only to turn into the church parking lot), which would be a “sin” would it not, has absolutely no business looking furtively at a gay person.
Then there are the dolts who will say that being gay is not as bad as being a “practicing” gay. I wonder if that is like being an adulterer “in your heart” which of course is not as bad as being a “practicing” adulterer…right?
I have often felt very sorry for the discrimination that gays experience until I became an atheist. We are even farther down the list of whom Christians consider trustworthy.
oh, I thought the point of the cartoon was that gay people can now go be spectators while just a few people “play” at church like everyone else is.
gee…lucky them
It’s funny how often one hears in the church, “Hate the sin, but love the sinner”. The church has the hating part down, but not the loving the sinner (unconditionally) down!. Another one that is often heard is, “God made Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve”. Whenever I hear that, I have to wonder, but then who made Steve…?
but then who made Steve…?
——-the same God that made joe the thief; betty the prostitute; jill the gossip; frank the murderer; bubba the serial rapist. God didn’t make them to do and be those things, just like he didn’t make steve to be a gay. They all choose to be….
fishon
Love this cartoon.
It see this attitude a lot – in fact the worse one I see is you can come but you need to not show any affection to each other because that makes us uncomfortable, we prefer to pretend you are not really gay. And we wonder why our churches are full of intolerance and hypocrisy.
Frank
Hi Everyone. Thanks for the comments. Any gay person can go to any church, as long as they remain in their closet. Some gays can go to some churches not in the closet, but definitely not practicing. Some gays can go to some churches not in the closet and practicing. But very few gays can go to a church not in the closet and practicing and totally participate and contribute meaningfully to the life of the community. This is more the issue I was addressing in the cartoon.
I’m sorry, Fishon, but however much you would like to think that being gay is a choice, you are incorrect. People do not wake up one day and decide to be gay. There is no scientific evidence that people do this. Your wishing something be so does not make it so. I will try to provide you some references tomorrow.
I also read from your post that you are saying that being gay is pretty much equivalent to being a serial rapist, a murder, a prostitute and a thief. Your doing this is a form of false witness towards gay people. The fact of a person’s being gay, does not make him or her a sociopath who is a danger to society.
Most gay people aren’t a whole lot different from you or me, they are just intrinsically attracted to _some_ members of their own sex rather than to _some_ members of the opposite sex. You and I can’t much help who attracts us, and neither can gay people.
Fishon, why don’t you try actually talking to some gay people? I’d be curious to hear how many “choose” to be hated, maligned, denied jobs, denied the thousand benefits of legal marriage, bashed to death and told time and again that they will burn in hell. It strikes me odd people would “choose” that.
Doesn’t it strike you odd?
larry p said, on February 4th, 2010 at 11:39 pm
I’m sorry, Fishon, but however much you would like to think that being gay is a choice, you are incorrect. People do not wake up one day and decide to be gay. There is no scientific evidence that people do this. Your wishing something be so does not make it so. I will try to provide you some references tomorrow.
———-I look forward to your references.
I also read from your post that you are saying that being gay is pretty much equivalent to being a serial rapist, a murder, a prostitute and a thief. Your doing this is a form of false witness towards gay people.
———-You kinda pick and chose there, Larry, your forgot I also said ‘gossip.’ By the way, Larry, my daughter was a prostitute and a thief.
The fact of a person’s being gay, does not make him or her a sociopath who is a danger to society.
———Sin is sin, Larry, whether a sociopath or not.
I was a drunk at one time. Now some drunks are a danger to society, and some drunks are not———still sin, either way.
Most gay people aren’t a whole lot different from you or me, they are just intrinsically attracted to _some_ members of their own sex rather than to _some_ members of the opposite sex. You and I can’t much help who attracts us, and neither can gay people.
——–Ok, Larry, what you going do with the hundreds of thousands of men who are attacted, and can’t help it, to 12 years and younger girls? According to you and others, it would be barbaric to make praticing homosexuality against the law again because it is their nature, they are born that way. So what you going do, Larry, lock all the guys away who just follow their natural born attaction to the little ones? They can’t help it if they are born that way.
fishon
Cecilia said, on February 4th, 2010 at 11:39 pm
Fishon, why don’t you try actually talking to some gay people? I’d be curious to hear how many “choose” to be hated, maligned, denied jobs, denied the thousand benefits of legal marriage, bashed to death and told time and again that they will burn in hell. It strikes me odd people would “choose” that.
Doesn’t it strike you odd?
—————Cecilia, doesn’t it strike you as odd that there are millions of folk who CHOOSE to destroy their life and the lives of their loved ones by living in the twilight zone of drugs and booze. I would be curious to hear how many “choose” to go to jail, loose their families, put strangers in danger when they are behind the wheel. All of them, Cecilia; I know, I was one of them. As you asked, “Doesn’t it strike you as odd?”
By the way, you assume too much when you intimate that I haven’t or don’t take to gays.
fishon
Jerry…here you go again…homosexuality and pedophelia ARE NOT in the same class at all. One of the reasons that people assume you don’t talk to gays is that you live in an isolated part of the country. You may know one or two…lets see…statistically there should be 27 homosexuals in your town and I’m sure most of them leave as soon as they’re out. I could set up a meeting here in the city and attract more gay people than there are people in your town and then I’d still have a small cross section of the city’s gay population. And even if it were as bad as you claim your whole attitude about how to confront sin is pretty harsh…we might catch the fish but its up to God to clean them. If I had made an altar call and someone then decided to tell me everything that was wrong with me I would have bolted out of the church. And you mention your daughter having been a prostitute and a theif…those are not the same as if she fell in love with a woman.
preacherlady said, on February 5th, 2010 at 1:11 am
Jerry…here you go again…homosexuality and pedophelia ARE NOT in the same class at all.
———-Now Alice, you know very well what I was saying. Larry P said:they are just intrinsically attracted to _some_ members of their own sex rather than to _some_ members of the opposite sex. You and I can’t much help who attracts us, and neither can gay people.
————-And my point way, thousands of men can not help being attracted to little girls. So, to use the argument that being ‘intrinsically attracted’ is NOT a defense for sin. Come on, Alice, you are way smarter than I am, but I ain’t no dummy. You are trying to change my argument——why, cause you or Larry have no good argument against what I pointed out.
You may know one or two…lets see…statistically there should be 27 homosexuals in your town and I’m sure most of them leave as soon as they’re out. I could set up a meeting here in the city and attract more gay people than there are people in your town and then I’d still have a small cross section of the city’s gay population.
———And your point, Alice? Hey Alice, I bet I know more Salmon poachers and big game poachers, personally, than there are living in Chicago—–so what does that prove?
And you mention your daughter having been a prostitute and a theif…those are not the same as if she fell in love with a woman.
———–Would be if she had sex with her.
jerry
ok, Jerry…I’ll leave your salmon poachers alone and you leave my homosexuals alone, deal? Alice
You know how to find out if being gay is a choice or not? Ask a gay person. It’s not a choice.
There isn’t likely to be any scientific evidence that homosexuality is a congenital or involuntarily acquired trait. And if there were, whoever chose to could easily dismiss the research as being funded by gays, or conducted by homosexual scientists, or whatever. No matter how much evidence is offered, it is always possible to insist on more, or more convincing evidence.
But just ask a gay person, and you’ll find out that it’s not a choice.
I can’t imagine anyone sitting around thinking to themselves: “Gee, I wonder whether I should choose to be straight, which is considered normal and acceptable; or perhaps choose to be gay, which is roundly condemned by a large percentage of otherwise intelligent people, considered a sin by many churches, was once illegal in most states, will likely result in my being shunned, abused, ridiculed, abandoned, abused, and beaten – possibly killed; will deny me many rights and advantages available to married people; may cost me jobs; and which in general will set me outside of society, marginalized and ostracized. Hmm… decisions, decisions…”
Oh, yeah. And then to abide by this decision, and face a lifetime of this abuse, without ever figuring, “Gee, maybe I should give this up and go straight. This is too much trouble”. They never seem to do that, despite all the horrors they face, the humiliation and heartbreak at being hated for who they are.
I never chose to be straight. That’s just how I turned out. I’m glad it turned out this way, because if it hadn’t, many people would hate me, and it wouldn’t even be my fault.
Homosexuality is not a choice. If it were a choice, it still wouldn’t be a sin.
So NP, is it ok in your book to be an openly practicing homosexual & a full paid up member of your local church, just so I am not missing the point here?
fat radical: what my cartoon is wrestling with is this: is this even possible? are we even willing to wrestle with this? or do we just black-and-white say no, not possible? is that any clearer?
“a full paid up member of your local church” (fat radical)….that’s revealing
It seems that the whole concept of choice is somewhat lost in these kind of arguments. One says X is a choice the other says it is not – evidenced by the fact that no one would “choose” to be maligned, etc. What I wonder about is the idea that so many of our “choices” in life are not simple, decided, conscious, volitional acts, that is, it seems to me that a person moves toward and away from many things for reasons which are unclear to that person. This does not mean that choice is not involved per se, it simply means that choice is at the very least, a amalgamation of a great many things churning beneath the surface of one’s life. If we are volitional creatures by nature, then we must begin to struggle with the concept of choice as more than simply a conscious, “I woke up one day and decided” sort of thing. The concept of choice must run far deeper than we typically allow for.
preacherlady said, on February 5th, 2010 at 3:32 am
ok, Jerry…I’ll leave your salmon poachers alone and you leave my homosexuals alone, deal? Alice
——-Nope.
jerry
Baruch60610 said, on February 5th, 2010 at 6:44 am
You know how to find out if being gay is a choice or not? Ask a gay person. It’s not a choice.
—————You know how to find out if a woman teacher having sex with her students is a choice or not? Ask Debra Beasley LaFave, Mary Kay Letourneau–it’s not a choice.
fishon
Just some thoughts:
I am a man who is both Christian and gay. I did not choose to be gay, and as some of the posters here point out, there is nothing attractive or desirable about being humiliated, bullied and called names I didn’t even understand until I got older. Apparently, I wore my gayness on my sleeve so that others could see.
And so I have heard people like Fishon many times in my life, both in and out of the church. I’m still in the process of absolutely believeing the promises of the Word are really for me despite my gayness. In fact, my gayness was the cliff edge for me in deciding whether to give my heart to Christ many years ago; the fellow who led me to Christ said no sin was greater than the blood of Jesus, and so I had to give in to His love, no matter what judgement I put on myself because of the curses I had received from those who hate gays.
My experience has told me that the Living God has held nothing back from me despite my brokeness. I have given and received prophetic words, and seen miracles from God worked out through me. Even me. Is being gay a sin? Maybe. Is being human sinless? Nope. Can I pretend I’m not gay? Maybe. Does it stop me from being Gay? Nope.
I have had many, many hours of counseling, almost all of it Christian, and nothing cured me. In fact, I have come to realize that there is NOTHING in my life, Fishon, that is worse or better than anything in yours. If acting out my gayness is sin, then I’ll live with that until the Holy Creator and I work out something different. I know this: my gayness is not a wall between the love of God and me, nor is my salvation through Christ compromised any more that it is with any other human. God is my judge. I’m pretty sure most in the Church are wrong on this issue; that is, being gay and not closeted, is worse than everybody else’s daily sin.
I am loved and accepted by my pastor, who knows I’m gay, and by my children, who know I’m gay. I am welcome to pray with others and help lead worship in my church. I am thankful that I, unlike many thousands before me, did not have well-meaning Christians successfully turn me away from the Cross.
The issue really is relationship with the Creator. I am welcome to figure mine out in my church and be gay. I haven’t yet held hands with a male partner yet in church, but as soon as I get one, I’m going to try that out! Trying to find an out Christian gay partner is like trying to spot Nessy in the lochs of Scotland. But then I digress.
And by the way, Fishon, nothing personal in my remarks referencing what you’ve said here. You’re certainly not alone in your point of view, and there’s strength in numbers, so all is well. But for me, gay is not just a concept or a point to argue over; it has been somewhere near the center of my life in and out of the church almost my entire life. As a friend of mine said recently, God’s law does not supercede the purpose of Christ’s death in setting us free of sin, daily or otherwise, including being gay. I think there’s something in the Bible about that too.
fat radical said, on February 5th, 2010 at 8:03 am
So NP, is it ok in your book to be an openly practicing homosexual & a full paid up member of your local church, just so I am not missing the point here?
———–You will find that the Nakedpastor, ain’t quite so naked with some questions.
fishon
nakedpastor said, on February 5th, 2010 at 8:15 am
fat radical: what my cartoon is wrestling with is this: is this even possible? are we even willing to wrestle with this? or do we just black-and-white say no, not possible? is that any clearer?
———-couple of things, NP. You are not being Naked with fat radical. And you answer questions at times that are far astry from your writing or cartoon point. Seems like a pretty straightforward question from fat radical.
fishon
Fishon, I would guess by your numerous comments that you lack tolerance, grace and love for any who are different from you. The attitude you have towards gays is all too prevalent in the church. All too often, the church is a place where if you do not say & act like everyone else, you are ostracized. God made us individuals with individual giftings and personalities. Our individuality should be embraced. We would ALL change something about another, but how much more Christ-like to love unconditionally and embrace, without reservation those who desire to worship with others our Lord and Saviour. Most of the invisible, emotional scars I carry are those inflicted by fellow believers.
I have not been to church (other than when visiting a Christian friend, in another town when they go) for 15 years, since I was spiritually abused in a “Christian” organization for 12 years. I do still read the Word and spend time in prayer daily. I am gay, but that is not the reason I suffered their abuse. There were many others in the organization who not only left the cult, but left God behind as well. I am sure there are churches where I live in Honolulu who honour Christ and treat others as God intended, but I am not willing to subject myself to more possible abuse to find one.
A year ago, I was diagnosed with cancer and was told by my dear, christian mother than now is the time I needed a church family. All I could think of was how I was treated by that same dysfunctional family before the cancer. There was no reason I would be drawn to them now! When I had surgery for my cancer last March, my brother in Texas who is a fundamentalist “christian” who preaches at how his little group has the Truth & the rest of us need to fall in line with what his church teaches sent me a small note saying he was praying for me before the surgery. There was never another note or call to see how I was after the surgery or through my recent course of radiation.
So who came & cared for me when I was healing from my surgery? My gay brother (who is a pastor) from Chicago & his partner for two weeks. I came across the Nakedpastor when I did a search on Flickr for “spiritual abuse”. His cartoons and comments are so refreshing and healing! If only I knew of a church like his where I live who might accept me, as God does and as the song says, “Just as I Am”. If I went back to any evangelical church I know of here, I could stay in the closet and attend each service with my mask and plastic smile in place or go as myself and know that I would face rejection, gossip or asked to leave just for being the person I know I am since I was a small child.
Joey: my heart goes out to you today, and though I’m a long way from Honolulu (in Eastern Canada), I walk with you as well.
joey: i’d LOVE to come to Honolulu!!! At least for a while.
Joey said, on February 5th, 2010 at 3:48 pm
Fishon, I would guess by your numerous comments that you lack tolerance, grace and love for any who are different from you.
———You guess wrong. But then, I can’t do much about that.
I don’t think you can find where I said anything bashing, unless you call me that because I say practicing homosexuality is a sin? If so, you surely have a warped understanding of tolerance, grace, and love.
I have not ostracized anyone in my life.
YOU:Our individuality should be embraced.
———–Not if it is sin.
YOU:Christ-like to love unconditionally
———–Christ loves unconditionally; he certainly does not accept unconditionally. If you know anything about the Bible, you know that: Try Matt. 7:23, just for a start.
Joey, a question. If I had visited you and tried to help you with your physical needs while battling cancer, and you found out, after 3 months of me helping you, I was a pastor [I am], and then you asked me the question, do you think practicing gays will go to hell unless repenting and following Jesus, and I told you, “Yes,” what would you do? Tell me to leave? I am very interested in your answer.
fishon
sometimes when we think we are being gracious, in relation to how others are it might appear so, but when compared to God’s grace is shamefully deficient. i think we need to consider that.
Fishon said, on February 5th, 2010 at 8:44 pm:
“Joey, a question. If I had visited you and tried to help you with your physical needs while battling cancer, and you found out, after 3 months of me helping you, I was a pastor [I am], and then you asked me the question, do you think practicing gays will go to hell unless repenting and following Jesus, and I told you, “Yes,” what would you do? Tell me to leave? I am very interested in your answer.”
Fishon, first of all I would guess that if we were exposed to one another very often for three months, the subject would have come up much sooner by how dogmatic you come across on this subject. Your being a pastor would have nothing to do with it. My father was a pastor and a man, full of grace, love and compassion. I respect pastors, and others who follow Christ who treat others in a Christ-like way. A pastor after God’s heart is one who is humble and a true servant. The title of “pastor” would not score you more or fewer points in my eyes or in the eyes of God.
When sharing Christ with others, I always tell people not to listen to me, just because I say something is true, even though I have read the bible cover to cover about 15 (literally) times, or even take their pastor’s word for it. I encourage people to get in the word, study, pray & seek God for themselves. Our salvation is too important than to trust in another person’s testimony or biblical studies. The closer one gets to knowing the true God of the bible, the more humble they should be. The closer we are to the Master, the more we realize how far we are from being a true reflection of Jesus Christ.
In helping me with my physical needs, though grateful, when compared with Christ’s righteousness, your good works and mine are as filthy rags. (Is. 64:6)
Whilst helping me, if I felt an attitude of condemnation and a judgmental spirit towards me by you, as well as a prideful spirit because of who I am attracted to, it would be in my best interest to not have you in my life (though forgive you). We need people in our lives who will build us up and encourage us as equals in Christ, not those who are self-righteous.
I would then ask, if you are straight, if you’d ever looked upon a woman in lust. If you had, I would remind you that you have committed adultery in your heart (Mt. 5:28) and that we are all in need of a Saviour. It is the Holy Spirit’s job to convict of sin and not your job to try & shame me for being who I am. I would also remind you that the blood of Christ is powerful enough to cleanse us from all unrighteousness (1 Jn. 1:9), no matter what that may be. Your job is, as is mine, to love unconditionally and be the hands, mouth and feet of Jesus in this troubled world.
Joey…AMEN and AMEN!
Sorry to come in so late on this, but I haven’t had Internet access. From what I know, most female prostitutes DO have sex with women, either as part of their work or because they’re so sick of men. I’m not saying y our daughter does, Fishon, but have you asked her or are you just assuming this?
The US government have done extensive experiments with animals where they’ve found roughly one in ten of them (given an equal choice) repeatedly show a sexual preference for the same sex – the animals, not the US government.
It seems to be biologically based as related to hormone levels in the womb at the time of the fetus developing.
I would suggest, Fishon, that you don’t know enough about it to make the kind of judgements you do. No one yet knows enough about it.
(Back online in a few days)
Fishon, your point about teachers having sex with children is irrelevant. What those teachers are doing is a crime. If they are honest about what they are doing, they will face prison. This is a powerful reason to keep silent or to lie.
What gay people do is not a crime. There is no incentive to lie.
Most of the gay people I ever knew – and I knew a whole lot of them, living in Chicago’s predominately gay area – told me that they didn’t choose their orientation, any more than I chose mine. A few told me that they had been abused by men as children. Perhaps those would have otherwise been straight; and perhaps not.
These people had absolutely no reason to lie to me. I was just a friend. I wasn’t a pastor, or a policeman, an employer, or anyone who could in any way do them harm.
Now, I admit that it is *possible* that just about every gay person in the world lies about whether they chose their orientation. That would be remarkable, since even criminals often admit to their crimes, at least in private. But I suppose there could be some grand gay conspiracy to lie to all the straights.
Still, I think it is much more likely that gay people are just about the same as straight people. I don’t know their hearts any more than I know the hearts of straight people. But I would assume, until I had evidence to the contrary, that if most gays make a statement about their orientation, it is likely to be true.
What you have is a self-fulfilling “prophecy” or belief. Gays are bad, so you can’t believe what they say. When they tell you that they didn’t choose to be gay, they’re lying. Since they’re lying, they are bad people.
Maybe so. But exactly the same logic can be applied to everyone in the world. You could apply it to Christians: Christians are bad people. Therefore, you can’t believe what they tell you. If they tell you they love the Lord, they’re lying. Since they’re lying, they’re bad people.
Or Atheists: Atheists are bad people. Therefore, you can’t believe what they tell you. I they tell you that they don’t just want to fornicate and murder, they’re lying. Since they’re lying, they’re bad people.
The beauty of this sort of circular reasoning is that you can never be proven wrong. The down side is that you’ll never know when you are wrong.
Baruch,
wonderfully written. the grace in your response is a great model for how my own should be, but often just end up being so much less and a lot more polemic.
peace
Hey, NP, as always you rock dude!
Despite what Fishon says your answer is clear about opening up the debate.
Whilst I find the whole gay scene a turn off there are many more wounded straights inside & outside the church who need to know a heavenly Father who loves & will not abuse them.
Also Faithlessinfatima, exactly what does my question reveal?
Baruch60610 said, on February 8th, 2010 at 2:33 am
Fishon, your point about teachers having sex with children is irrelevant. What those teachers are doing is a crime. If they are honest about what they are doing, they will face prison. This is a powerful reason to keep silent or to lie.
What gay people do is not a crime.
—————Use to be. Just because it isn’t a crime now does not mean it is not a sin according to the Bible.
Being drunk ain’t a crime——–but it is sin.
So your point would be??
What you have is a self-fulfilling “prophecy” or belief.
—————No, I just believe the Bible over what a gay would tell me about why they sin.
Or Atheists: Atheists are bad people. Therefore, you can’t believe what they tell you.
————–You said they were bad, I didn’t.
Nope, I can’t believe what they say the Bible says. And they do try to tell me at times——on this blog.
The beauty of this sort of circular reasoning is that you can never be proven wrong.
————You make this particular debate circular because you choose not to believe the Bible on this subject. The Bible proves me right whether you want to acknowledge it or not.
fishon
The bible can be used to prove most anything…for example:
its ok to use your tithes to buy a bottle of booze and drink it at a church conference
its ok to have a concubine
ditto slaves
its an abomination to God to eat shrimp or catfish
And the list goes on…the point is to look at the whole counsel of God, wrap it in Grace and Mercy and love unconditionally without judging or condemning anyone.
14:26 And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou…
Thats Deut. 14….that chapter also says not to eat rabbit
I had a choice about being gay. The choice was to be honest about it to myself and others, and to accept it as a part of what makes me a person created in the vast image and likeness of all God’s creation.
Thanks for this cartoon! It is great in bringing up the issue of what many glbt people feel underneath the veneer of many well meaning congregations who proclaim their doors open to all.
I have been fortunate enough to grow up in a loving and Gospel proclaiming inspired (liberal, many people call it) diocese of the Episcopal Church and have always felt very included in every aspect of my life in the church. I know all too well, however, the great pain that many friends and loved ones have experienced to the contrary.
Sadly it has become, in many denominations, an ‘us or them’ mentality. Can we not realize, all of us, on both sides of the issue (any issue), that Jesus calls us to make room for everyone at the table, for at one time or another we are each the lost sheep.
OK. Heres what I want to know,why is it that many people feel physically, emotionally & spiritually repulsed by the idea of gay sex. I may get barred for posting this but wasn’t a male penis designed to go into a female vagina for the purpose of procreation/sex rather than a male anus which was designed to expel excrement? I get all the making everyone welcome thing but the notion of gay sex makes me feel physically sick.
Not that I would in any way endorse it but you know there are people who would physically attack gays & call them freaks just because they are gay. Even in this unacceptable expression of rejection is there some core human rationale in there that is saying this type of behavior or life choice is just wrong so stop it or I will make you stop.
What amazes me about Christian fundamentalists is that they do not simply express their personal beliefs about God, but they claim they are actually speaking for God.
There are hundreds of Christian denominations with different traditions and theologies but using the same Bible, and by defending what they call the “plain meaning” of scripture, each will claim that they are speaking for God.
God, who created the entire universe, with all its diversity, and has sovereign knowledge over every minute detail, is much bigger and wiser than our human brains can take in. To claim, after reading the books of the Old and New Testament that we can “fully” understand God’s purposes for this world, in each and every situation, is absurd and outrageous.
The problem with making definitive conclusions from the Bible about the issues we do not understand is that we put ourselves in a situation where we think that we have nothing further to learn. It is the worst type of arrogance possible and totally contrary to Christ’s teaching about humility.
Hey all. I don’t know if anyone is still following this; it’s been awhile since the last post, but here goes.
I want to thank fat radical for putting that out there. No, no sarcasm intended, I really mean it. Thanks for being honest and saying what you’re really thinking. For many who discriminate against gays and lesbians, it’s ultimately about sex and personal repulsion.
That’s something we should think about. We are often repulsed by many things. Only decades ago many Christians would have been repulsed by the thought of an interracial couple having sex. Go back a little further and people were rather put off by the idea of women wearing pants. In parts of the world today, people are repulsed by the thought of eating with their left hand. Many have and had good-sounding rationalizations for feeling that way, about how things were designed or intended to be, but which in hindsight or from a distance seem like pure bigotry and irrationality. Change the viewpoint, the context, and the repulsion is gone. It’s far from being inborn; it’s learned.
That’s why repulsion in itself is not a good reason to condemn something. [Hey Frank - there I go stealing your lines again.
] It may be a reason to examine something, but the question should not be “what’s wrong with this that it repulses me?” but “why does it repulse me? what it is about that something that repulses me? what does that say about that thing? what does that say about me?” That’s not to blame or condemn anyone who finds anything in particular repulsive. We all live in a world where we are constantly exposed to various viewpoints, assumptions, and prejudices. Before making judgements about particular practices, particularly moral judgements about the practices of others, that we have little or no real knowledge of (because let’s face it, how much do straight people really know about what gay or lesbian sex is really like?), we should stop to think about our own experiences, biases and assumptions. A little honest self-reflection could go a long way.
And I know that isn’t the issue for everyone, but it underlies a lot of the discrimination that’s out there. We should be honest about that and what it really means.
Christine, I left a follow up tag to see if any one would respond even though I was late into the dialog. Thanks for your straight (forgive the pun too) bat back to the balls I threw.
I notice by your name that you are a woman. “Thats so perceptive” I hear you say, but my point is that I find Christian women are more receptive to debate these issues. Why is that?
Also I find in society generally that women are less anti-gay than men. Only the Chandlers & Joeys of this world are fascinated by lesbian sex, & that is seen as funny.
In terms of repulsion/judgement has there ever been a time in world social history when male homosexuality was considered acceptable by men & just as normal as hetro sexuality?
I personally, & I concede that my viewpoint is to an extent learned from my conservative Christian upbringing & influenced by my own sexuality, cannot think other than gay sex between men is unnatural,that is, not as nature & therefore as God intended.
I would love to think otherwise because it would solve a problem, but in all conscience I cannot.
As a Christian I want to treat all men as equal before God, I believe that if Jesus was here today he would definitely associate with gays & be criticised for it, but,like the woman that was caught in adultery, he would not condone what they do.
“In terms of repulsion/judgement has there ever been a time in world social history when male homosexuality was considered acceptable by men & just as normal as hetro sexuality?”
Absolutely. At the risk of oversimplifying a diverse range of views and attitudes over time and geography, it is only our Western culture over the last couple of centuries that has adopted this generally repulsed view of gay sex. Western influence has since spread this to other cultures that had previously been more accepting. Ok, that is definitely an oversimplification, but there is some truth to it. Sufficed to say there are many examples of cultures, more past but some present that were/are generally accepting of homosexual practices as normal and natural. And I would argue that in some places we are going back to a place of cultural tolerance and acceptance. The idea that the repulsion you describe transcends history and culture is not accurate.
“I personally… cannot think other than gay sex between men is unnatural,that is, not as nature & therefore as God intended.”
I really can’t comment without a better understanding of what you mean by “natural”, which could have so many different meanings, and how exactly that relates to what God intends.
Thanks for responding. Great conversation.