I speak from a Christian perspective here as it relates to the church. But these 10 points can also be applied to any denomination and even any religion. I am in solidarity with those who struggle to stay in the church, with those who have left it, as well as those who desire to be a part of a spiritual community but won’t for various reasons. I consider these my mission field. These points below are only from my experience, and they all can be prefaced with “generally speaking”. Not everyone’s. Just consider them:
- I’ve experienced enough abuse, intrigue, exploitation and alienation within the church, and have heard enough first hand testimonies from others, to realize that it isn’t rare within this institution.
- My experience of church in the past tells me that I am to believe what is expected and what I am told.
- Questions, unless they complement the accepted tradition and dogma, are not welcomed.
- I’ve found that friendship within the church is not based on love for the person, but on a conditional compatibility.
- The church is notorious for supporting codependency. Refuse to play this game and you’re considered cruel.
- Success, in terms of money, numbers, appearance and reputation, is the gauge of choice. If you redefine what true success is and live by that, you’re considered a failure.
- Creativity has difficulty finding a home here. Unless it is religious art.
- Exclusion trumps inclusion. Gays, for example. Diversity is scary and deemed impossible.
- Male dominated. The fascination with power, authority, strategy, chain of command, visions and goals, reflect this.
- The threatening demand to adhere to a literalist interpretation of scripture is always the axe waiting to fall and sever you from the group.
My name is David Hayward, and I am the nakedpastor. I am a graffiti artist on the walls of religion.
Personally, from a Christian perspective, I would a thought something to do with “authentic and effective worship” or “communicating Biblical truth”, or any passing mention of “Jesus Christ” might have been appropriate. But then this list really isn’t so much about what the Lord expects from his followers, is it? It’s more about what we want. Interesting.
I’m also writing from a Christian perspective–albeit an individual perspective so it probably won’t match any other Christian perspective–I am feeling this list. I do believe the Lord does expect his followers to create safe spaces free from coercion and abuse, to question what they hear from anyone to see if it aligns with what the Spirit is teaching them, to continue to seek Truth–regardless of whether it is considered acceptable or not, to begin to measure how they love against how God wants them to love, etc., etc.
Authentic worship, giving and receiving of Biblical truth, and the working out of what it means to be a “Christian” (little Christ) cannot truly exist in a place where people are manipulated, exploited, and humiliated. In my opinion, that’s why Jesus delivered the good news wrapped in love and tied with grace instead of dropping it with a thunderous thud from the heights of Heaven.
#4 hits me like a brick…probably the hardest part of leaving the church
Interesting list, but I don’t understand 5.
Oh my, God,…I’m not alone after all (a prayer of thanksgiving).
It makes me sad that there is a verse(s) that the fundamentalist could use to back up nearly each one of these.
hey paul: google codependency. it’ll help you understand #5.
Sorry, I didn’t realise it was a technical term. Interesting stuff. Thanks.
[...] ten represent my spin on”10 Challenges of Religious Communities” by Nakedpastor, whose cartoons provide no end of theological and practical thought fodder. [...]
You’re right, it does fit almost every religion. In fact, all those reasons (minus the co-dependency) is the reasons I hear many wiccans and sometimes pagans use for their choice of religion. But I’ve observed in their lives that if you switch out male dominated for female dominated, excluding gays to excluding straight republicans, and so on, you end up with exactly the same thing, just with better clothes and jewelry.
I have seen a bot of all of those in my time in the church (7 years). Many of those reasons were the same reasons I left – if only for some true sincerity. I always struggled with the system backing up the system part of the church…I am just not a systems type person in some ways…I like creativity and change…and in my 7 years that was the hardest thing to get – change.
The believing, questions, and literalist part really strike a chord with me…even to this day as I blog along the road to somewhere. I find many Christian communities would rather not touch some things because is ‘sacredness’ to the system (and also to them). I am not sure they really know what they have invested into in some ways. I get the whole personal salvation thing and the meaning of community – but at what cost is the real question?
If there is a ‘falling away’ from the church it doesn’t start with the 1000′s of individuals that have left – like they are the one’s with the ‘problem’. It is much simpler than that IMO. Most people I know that have grown dissatisfied with the church experience left because it’s in-authenticity to speak to reality in this day in age. It’s almost like a puppet show in some ways…if you stick around long enough you will learn the act and be able to do it also…and is that what is substituting for genuine experiences with a Living God?
Never mind all that, the cloyingly sentimental and limp ‘worship songs’ are enough to stop me going.
David,
I was annoyed with you recently because you were re-affirming your faith in spite of all the questions. After a couple days, it didn’t frustrate me as much, and I was back to just appreciating that you were willing to openly pose the questions.
You still have your faith, and I pretty much lost mine. But at least there is this NEW place to be in-a place where church people and former church people can be honest. We aren’t judged for questioning. So thank you for providing that.
And I like the fact that it’s a mixture of Christian, agnostic, whatever. I really hate our natural tendency to separate into groups and feel superior to the other group.
I’d say #8 is the problem. The church supposedly calls all to come in. But all those sinners out there aren’t stupid. They know they wouldn’t fit in. They understand the real deal.
And #4, I have personally experienced. They did not want a relationship with ME. They wanted a relationship with someone who believed like them. My questions pretty much ended “the relationship.”
Lynn, you just made an interesting comment. You said #8 was the problem (exclusion trumps inclusion) then referred to all “those” sinners “out there”. Referring to David’s example, that would imply (and this is the evangelical mindset) that homosexuals are sinners just for being homosexual and that the “sinners” are only outside the church not inside. This really gets at the heart of #8. Homosexuals are the minority, they are different and misunderstood. People fear what they don’t understand. Therefore gays are excluded unless they agree to change and morph into the church’s biased interpretation of the Bible (#4-conditional acceptance justified by #10-literal translation which results in #8-lack of diversity which probably contributes to #7-lack of creativity).
Trey,
Well put. The church wants all to come AND agree with what they think the Bible says. Plenty of people want to come but will not or cannot fit into all the precious doctrine.
The doctrine TRUMPS real actual human beings. I don’t see how that will ever change.
The Bible is seen as the Word of GOD. They can’t give that up, but they supposedly love all, etc., etc., etc. It’s a problem.
Most churches are basically saying “It’s my way or the highway.” Many people choose the highway.
Another real reality check is on the list as #1. It doesn’t take long before you find out that the Christians are just like everybody else in the world: they gossip, judge, and have all the other lovely characteristics of the human race.
The church only has to use all this love talk now they lack power. In the past it was just do as your told or you’l burn in hell or if we get our hands on you, burn at the stake. You were fined if you didn’t go to church. And if you openly believed something different , e.g. Cathars, Muslims, then they could legitimately just turn up and slaughter your community wholesale. Now they have to lure people in.
Lynn,
I love that statement you made “The doctrine TRUMPS real actual human beings.” That’s definitely what I’m experiencing right now. It also trumps reality. It amazes me how cold a shoulder some Christians can turn to those who don’t subscribe to their doctrine and how blatant a reality can be ignored because it doesn’t line up with their narrow interpretation of Scripture.
Lynn: How were you annoyed with me? Can you be more specific? I don’t understand. Sorry. david
Since leaving the church to figure my own heart out, I lost ALL my “friends” (except for 1, and even she gave me a speech how she could never be truly happy for me, but will “hang in there) I’ve had for the past 10 years. That was pretty much everyone I had in this country since moving here at 18. My noner boyfriend doesn’t understand the depth of betrayal and the feeling of abandonment. We’re taught how bad the world is and how not to be a part of it, and thus christian friendship must be the real thing. But how very wrong I was to believe that.
Since leaving the church I have discovered the following:
The freedom to enjoy being a woman. Thank you for acknowledging how lacking this is in the church. It’s so deeply and unhealthily unbalanced.
The freedom to question everything/anything without fear of reprimand or knowing you’re on a leash and will be reigned in soon.
The freedom to be my artist self. I cannot explain how stifling the church was. When so many subjects are off limits, how can you express yourself?
What it’s like to like someone for them instead of first applying the qualifier of “saved”.
What it’s like to have healthy thriving natural friendships. I now loath what I have come to realize is co-dependent relationships.
What it’s like to be with a man who is good because that’s who he is, and not because the church is watching, who eventually abuses when he thinks no one will see. And the freedom from covered up/excused/condoned abuse.
I wish I had your strength to hope that these freedoms could exist within the church. I gave up. I don’t regret it for a second. But I am rooting for you regardless of your paths ahead.
<3
Also, I love Tiggy ;c)
Well, David, once again you captured life so well . . . your words do match many of my experiences and I’m with Trey, “OMG, I’m not alone.” I’m grateful for that, but oh, how I wish it were different for us all. Thanks!
Interesting list, David.
Like @criticaltc, #4 has real meaning for me. I have only ever found one or two real friends at church. A friend of mine used to say he found more acceptance and real friendship from the pagans he plays golf with. For me, this has led to lots of loneliness and disappointment. When I go back to church, and I’m still not sure when that will be, I’m going to have to lower my expectations.
I think what’s hardest about the lack of friendship in church, is that so much ‘service’ is expected, and that is hard to do alone, or especially when surrounded by others, but feeling alone because of the lack of acceptance.
I know what codependency is, but I don’t quite get #5 either – do you mean we’re expected to attend to the needs of others and if we don’t, we’re seen as cruel? Hmm. So you mean all those people at the ‘cool table’ are really just as miserable as me?
I was reading Brian McLaren’s “A Generous Orthodoxy”. I’m probably going to misquote him, but I like the idea of being less a Christian, and more a follower of Jesus.
Thanks for your ministry, David. It’s very precious.
Happy and blessed new year to you and all your loved ones.
#9 confuses me a lot. I don’t disagree; I am simply confused. Almost every religious community I have been a part of, 80+% of the members have been female. Yet those who led the prayers, read aloud from the scriptures, led the worship, conducted the music ministry, or celebrated the sacraments had a 70+% likelihood of being male. I could never figure out why.
A great post. Hits the nail on the head. In my experince it is often not the whole church but just a few who shout very loudly that are often the ones who create the enviroment you describe above. This then affects the life of the whole church and for some reason the others all remain quiet.
David,
You asked above why I was annoyed with you for awhile. It was the Job is the Man! statement, where you said, “He is my resistant, insistent reminder to reject the answer and the made point.”
I, as an agnostic now, took that to mean “David is playing a game here. He’s not posing these questions sincerely, where an answer someone gives might actually cause him to change his mind.” I felt “had” “fooled” “used” because I had sincerely been a Christian for a very long time and finally did have the courage to start questioning. My questions were real. They weren’t questions asking for information. They were questions of doubt.
I think a Christian on here had accused you of game-playing also, that I had been exposed to that thought already.
I may have misunderstood what you actually were saying anyway. I’m just telling you how I took it-and, by the way, thank you for wanting me to clarify.
Ok, then, I kept thinking about it all and feeling upset, then I remembered what my caregroup leader had said when I was questioning at church. He said something like “Honest questions are fine.” I think what he was saying is if my questions were for information about doctrine, he’d be glad to answer. But if my questions were a way of expressing doubt, then they were not welcome.
Well I had spent plenty of years doing the former and now my questions WERE expressing doubt, and I had been open about that anyway. So those-type questions were NOT welcome. Anyway, the point is I finally realized that my leader probably felt I was not being genuine, so he was annoyed. So I empathized with him more.
Then I realized that if you David put the questions out there, yet still keep your own faith, it’s pretty immature for me to get in a snit just because you aren’t thinking the same as me. So I decided to be mature and appreciate this site and what you are doing.
And you’ve stated above that those in my category-people who’ve left the church-are part of your mission-then I appreciate the respect shown that we are out there and our experiences DO count in the scheme of things.
Sorry this is so long. Any feedback?
meditate on Matthew 7:1-14
“honest questions are fine”
wow you hit the nail on the head. that is exactly what that means.
Male dominated . . . but not male-attended.
Wow. Sadly,I was right.
Not only is it not about God, His Kingdom, His Word, or His Son, Jesus Christ, it’s really about all those mean Christians in church who can’t see how important MY needs are. If only those hypocrites were as spiritual as me..
Nice handbaskets, kids, and yes, it is warm in here.
Barry, #2 and 3 wd have that covered.
lynn: i see what you’re saying. i guess what i’m trying to get at is an assertion, from any camp, that claims to carry all the meaning, both religious and non.
David,
I don’t understand what you said above. Can you clarify?
lynn: i think we’re missing each other here. i don’t think i was affirming my faith by what i said. what i meant was that i don’t accept the pat answer from anyone. i don’t trust it… whether it’s religious or non-religious. that’s what i meant. i hope that helps.
David,
Thanks. That does help.
Barry, What’s a handbasket? I guess I don’t really understand your comment or the emotion behind it… I guess MY need to try to figure things out is rearing its ugly head again. God probably just wants me to go proclaim a Bible verse or sing a worhip chorus on the street corner or do something to further his kingdom instead of trying to figure out where you’re coming from, right?
Barry,
This is the message I got from your comment: Feel guilt.
It’s the basic Christian message.
ttm,
I agree with your interpretation. We are to feel guilt for being self-centered and questioning. Those are sins.
And speaking of sins, I’d take Christians more seriously if they got all hot and bothered over gossip or not paying your taxes honestly. They get hot and bothered over gays. Even gays who wouldn’t dream of cheating on their partners because they care for them. Christians lose all credibility by focusing on the wrong “sins.”
deflection… isn’t that what it’s called? can’t handle the question so you insult the questioner?
Savvy said, on December 30th, 2009 at 10:03 pm
Also, I love Tiggy ;c)
Huh? Thank you very much! I’m not sure how it fitted into the discussion, but it was lovely to read that at the start of the new year.
All you people who feel uncomfortable in churches; you should try going to a Metropolitan Communty Church – they are a whole lot more accepting of people and it’s okay to ask questions there. They were set up for gay people, but you don’t have to be gay to go there. A lot of people like it for just the reasons stated. Also, it’s good to stand alongside the marginalised like Jesus did.
Tiggy said, on December 31st, 2009 at 10:15 pm
you should try going to a Metropolitan Communty Church – they are a whole lot more accepting of people and it’s okay to ask questions there.
———–Oh yea, they would accept me; like a drink of warm salt water.
They are no more tolerant than those you would call intolerant of them.
fishon
A) I wasn’t talking about you Fishon, because you DO feel comfortable in the church you go to.
B) H ow the hell would you know? Have you ever been to one?
Tiggy said, on December 31st, 2009 at 10:26 pm
A) I wasn’t talking about you Fishon, because you DO feel comfortable in the church you go to.
B) H ow the hell would you know? Have you ever been to one?
———-A) I knew that, Tiggy.
B) Dang, I think I hit a nerve.
So how long do you think I would be tolerated and loved when I said in a
Sunday School class or in a fellowship, social setting, that practicing
homosexuality is a sin, and unless stopped and repented of, that person[s]
were going ot hell?
By the way, how do you know some of the things you have said about
churches in America? How many have you been to, tiggy?
fishon
That’s just stupid. Obviously part of going to a church that has been set up for gay people to feel safe, would mean not allowing people there to persistently say such things publicly. Sadly, there are gay people who believe just what you believe, Fishon, so I doubt that believing it or saying it once or twice casually would be enough for you to be asked to leave. If you went around saying it all the time, I guess they’d assume you were there just to cause trouble – don’t know what they’d do then. All these churches are very different in any case – some are liberal, others more conservative or Evangelical; some high church, others low church.
I don’t know what you’re referring to that I’ve said about churches in the US.
Tiggy said, on December 31st, 2009 at 11:19 pm
That’s just stupid
———-I guess that takes care of this little conversation, then. It would be stupid to continue to being stupid.
fishon
Well basically, every time someone mentions tolerance you say ‘Ah, but they wouldn’t tolerate my intolerance’. It’s a stupid argument. Obviously if you are creating a tolerant environment, the one thing that you have to not tolerate is intolerance. Can’t you SEE that, Mr. Fishon?????
Happy New Year anyway, I’m going to bed.
Tiggy x
And Happy New Year to you, Tiggy.
fishon
Religious communities: all largely the same, because they are all filled with broken people, whether or not those people realize they are broken.
Non-religious communities: much like religious communities, but they gather for different reasons.
I was raised outside of the community of faith, my parents’ ‘religious’ community being the American Legion [possibly similar to the Royal Canadian Legion]. I encountered God in my mid-twenties, having been running from ‘the church’ for my first 3 years of college.
Had I not encountered God, I can’ t really see a reason why I would expose myself to ‘church.’ I’d rather sleep. …had I not encountered God…
Church / ecclesia / “called-out ones,” I believe, is intended to be a gathering of believers and those who are wondering what the others are doing there. We ARE broken vessels, and unfortunately, “the church” starts becoming like any other civic group with agendas, bylaws and bank accounts. Unless…unless the Spirit of God is present.
Whatever I mean by that. I’ve attended dozens of churches in the last 30 years, various denominations, many of them believing that theirs was the right way to do church. I’ve been an active member of 5 congregations, ‘active’ meaning that I was in some way involved with the organization and ‘business’ of the congregation.
#4 was probably the hardest to endure for the 7 or so years; the congregation was very inward-focused. However, we had specific reasons for being there. The music was from the 19th century, and ‘worship’ was formulated. I had trouble seeing he Spirit of God there, but I know the Spirit was present; just in a different manner than I was accustomed to.
For some, the Spirit is manifested in tongues [they do exist, and are widely imitated] and healings; for some the Spirit is manifested in caring for the poor. For some the Spirit isn’t present. I guess those folks do it because their parents did it.
God is eternal, infinite, all-knowing, non-tangible. We’re stuck with limitations, impermanence, ignorance and feelings. I have never had trouble with the notion of not understanding God; we have so little in common. In my present, particular circumstances, I can relate to Job more than Mark. I have questions only the Eternal can answer, and the Eternal doesn’t particularly “care” whether or not I receive answers to those questions. The Eternal asks for my belief in spite of the questions.
The fact that I’m writing this, is possibly a movement of the Spirit– for most of my 50+ years “I haven’t cared at all” about the opinions of others. The Spirit is breaking down my walls. I still mostly don’t care what others think about things I care about; however, I’m learning that this may not be the best way to live.
“The Church” has been at war for nearly 2000 years. Some relish that war–victory of ‘us’ over ‘them’. Many of us are tired of wargames, and are seeking honesty in our dealings with others and with God. There is no ‘them’, only us. I have challenges with certain behavior; I also believe that a person isn’t defined by their behavior. I have trouble understanding people who persist in defining themselves by their behavior. The ‘church’ needs to stop defining people by their behavior. Jesus looked beyond behavior to hearts; I don’t believe there is any behavior that would stand as a barrier to Jesus.
thus endeth the sermon
What’s wrong with music from the 19th century? I’m not normally a traditionalist when it comes to worship forms, but after some of the inartistic ‘Jesus is my boyfriend’ mush I’ve experienced recently, I’d rather be singing 19th century hymns. They generally have better tunes and far less of the cringe factor.
Jesus is my boyfriend? I think I’d thow up or leave or both.
I was an agnostic when I entered Catholic school, and the I encountered a risk you do not list: I read the bible cover to cover. I have several times since. You might find people are put off by the genocide, gang rape, and smashing of babies’ heads against rocks. That book is right off-putting! No, I did not feel drawn to cherry-pick “the good parts.”