The founder of the Vineyard movement I presently find myself in, John Wimber, once said that the role of the pastor was to help people move from one spiritual stage to the next, to help them grow in maturity. Although I might not agree with Wimber’s idea of growth and maturity, I think it is valuable to recognize the most important point: I am teaching a diverse group of people at various stages of faith with vastly differing and even contradictory beliefs. One thing is for sure: they do not believe what I believe (a disclaimer: I must be honest: I don’t post nearly a fraction of what concerns me. If I did I would be in even more trouble!) So, when I teach, I do not try to convince people to believe what I believe. In fact, knowing something or believing something is not the primary issue. I am not concerned with it. I am most concerned with transformation, for change, for the liberation of the human being from suffering and bondage. This is not accomplished by thought. So, again, when I teach I put very little effort into educating people on different theologies or beliefs or whatever.
Rather, what I attempt to do is teach in such a way that each person can take what is said and apply it immediately to their own lives… where they are at. I hope that what I say will be food for everyone present to provoke change, to liberate them from whatever is binding them. I wonder if this is why Jesus apparently didn’t speak so much in propositional terms, but with stories. He wasn’t into educating people on the intricacies of scripture or the law. He was more concerned with how can someone be born again (not in the evangelical or fundamentalist way), but how can someone start all over again, a new creation? He was also gifted at the art of putting the question. He was frustrating to those who wanted to preserve and promote the religious system, but a breath of fresh air to those who were excluded from this same system.
I’m often accused of not teaching enough. The brain loves the accumulation of facts because it postpones the necessity for change, and in fact tricks the brain into thinking more thought means change. I’m also often accused of not being a more assertive leader and teacher, that I need to leave my questions at home, and preferably settle them and feed the people with the answers that they are looking for. I get this a lot. But I’m not interested. I’ve experienced it in my own life and witnessed for so many years of teaching: more knowledge does nothing. In fact, it is a detriment. Now I am concerned with what I’ve said before: creative change. And it is urgent!
This is a small watercolor of mine, SOLD.
Check out my t-shirts HERE. I’m growing my inventory all the time. And check out my contemplative art here.
My name is David Hayward, and I am the nakedpastor. I am a graffiti artist on the walls of religion.
David,
Rather, what I attempt to do is teach in such a way that each person can take what is said and apply it immediately to their own lives…
____Give an example if you can.
fishon
Thanks David! I needed to hear this because I am ever-growing in my understanding of what it means to teach (and Jesus ain’t a bad example).
I try to hold myself to the “knowledge” or the “truth” that I’ve actually been a participant of or witness to being lived out. So for example, if I’m following the lectionary I want to share how I’ve seen this scripture in the flesh.
All too often I fail at this.
I know I can conjure up a list of sins the people in the room might need to confess that day (and hope I hit the nail on the head), I know I can attempt to teach in a way that provides an immediate life application…
but lists and applications concern me.
On the other hand, I can choose to be a witness to living Scripture, a Word (or Logos) that has run it’s coarse through me or has shown itself through lives around me.
And, as you said David, I can provoke questions. I can rattle our communal cage leaving us all tumbling down our individual hills of life, worries, and beliefs in order to end up (or start at) whatever place God desires for us.
In many ways this is why this 26 years old has grown weary with powerpoint and sermon notes, I want to get out of the way as much as possible. I don’t wish to control, manipulate, or assume what Word, what conclusion, or what question is intended for you.
But like I said, all too often I fail at this.
much love my friend!
I understand your quandry totally. How I’ve dealt with it is to do an in depth study of the Sermon On the Mount….I start with Seek first the kingdom of God. When everyone is involved with some contemplative meditation they can begin to form more definitive beliefs. I also have people define their beliefs. I tell them I don’t care what they believe, but that they know what they believe. To those who ask “well, what are we supposed to believe?” I tell them that they need to form their own beliefs and that using the teachings of Jesus would be a good place to explore Truth…. now you’ve got to realize that the majority of people that I teach have been clobbered in the church, have usually gotten involved in something else, and are apt to have some pretty bizzare beliefs. A lot of them are so bruised that they cringe if you mention Jesus or the bible. I usually start with Emmet Fox’s book The Sermon On the Mount…it also has an in depth study of the Lord’s Prayer. I feel that a person’s spiritual growth depends on what they believe at any given time, not what I believe or what a denomination believes, and I believe that as teachers we need to be able to guide them on their journey and on their quest for truth in terms they can accept wholeheartedly.
I’ve found that most christians spend their time fighting a defeated enemy and/or asking God to do things for them that He’s already accomplished. Our ego stops us from attaining all that God has given us, so it is through the transcendence of our ego (or crucifying the flesh in bible parlance) that real transformation can take place.
NP & preacherlady,
Neither of you appear to be proponents of the group speak and cultic behaviour I’ve come to associate with preacher types. What a novel idea, meeting people where they are and allowing them to grow.
Egad, what next; going down the slippery slope of allowing people to question their and your beliefs?
Be careful, liberating madness may ensue.
‘one spiritual stage to the next’
And if you don’t want to take the Advanced Course?
TC…not only question, but to live in the questions…once we’re sure we have “the answers” we’re in deep trouble. My philosophy of spiritual teaching is that we provide a safe space for people to grow in…throw in some reading material that will stimulate…throw out some questions for them to explore…and let it happen. We seem to want congregations of clones where everyone is on the same page at the same time and yet people who come to church or bible study are apt to be in any number of places. For me, the biggest challenge is to get people to express what they mean when they say God. Everyone’s concept is different and if your core belief is in a God of wrath and punishment you will have a decidedly different experience than the person who believes in a loving father.
Tiggy…don’t take it…you have free will. If you are content where you are, why change?
tiggy asks—And if you don’t want to take the Advanced Course?
____ah, tiggy, you might miss out on something glorious.
fishon
i would love to attend a church like yours. Makes me wish I lived in the great, white north!
“The brain loves the accumulation of facts because it postpones the necessity for change, and in fact tricks the brain into thinking more thought means change.”
Brilliant Dave, you have nailed me, but can the desire for knowledge reveal a hunger for change or is it just that alone. It is sad to think that enlightenment may only change our thoughts and words without changing our heart and behaviour, or that we fool ourselves into thinking we have changed just because we are able to debate.
I am reminded of the phrase, “When all is said & done, there’s a lot more said than done” and sadly that very much includes that which pruports to be the kingdom as well
Can we seek ‘cathartic knowledge’ in the same way we seek ‘accumulative knowledge’ ?
Fishon: ‘ah, tiggy, you might miss out on something glorious.’
Yeah that’s how they sell it. ‘Okay you’ve done the Introductory course, but if you REALLY want to know God then do this course. If you want to move up a whole stage in spiritual development then this course is essential.’ It’s the Landmark Forum all over again. They have to keep you coming back for more, you see.
I have discovered something wonderful – it’s that I don’t need to play that game. And as David said, the Wimberist model of development isn’t one we all share. Nobody is more spiritually advanced than anyone else in my book – we’re all complex mixtures.
Yes please give an example.
We operate much this way in our little group. We all leave so refreshed and joy filled when we have a chance to see into ourselves and share our breakthrough with one another.
Wouldn’t you say it’s all about helping each other get breakthrough?
What is a ‘breakthrough’? I keep hearing this new terminology in church and it strikes me as unnecessary. I don’t feel a need for a ‘breakthrough’. Did Jesus tell us to keep repeatedly seeking after breakthroughs? I can imagine God looking down and saying, ‘Nothing’s ever good enough for you, is it?’ I get this feeling at my church that they’re just trying to have more and more ‘spiritual experiences’. And what happens afterwards? Nothing – just back to normal.
Tiggy…people who are living from spiritual high to spiritual high are missing the boat. Yes, we experience God on the mountain top, but what about the place where we know He is with us in the deepest valley?Or when we are engaged in mundane things?God is…and its reaching the point where we know God is…Breakthroughs are much overrated and the expression has become almost trite although there are times when our spiritual eyes become open wider and we can see into the world of spirit. Its more about learning to trust in God rather than our own understanding than anything. Seeking the Kingdom of God first and foremost. Just realize that you are having your experience and that it is unique and someone else’s experience is unique to their lives as well. They really can’t be compared.
Breakthrough (the way I mean it) is just a word to describe the moment that you see something new that you were blind to before. It’s like an “aha moment”. But it’s a holy spirit moment because it takes the work of the Lord to show it to us. It also requires a humility and willingness on our part to see it.
When we have breakthrough, we are like the man in the Bible who sees his relection in the mirror. We see ourselves for what we really are. If we remember what we saw, we can then live it out, transformed in some way.
But yes, you are right Tiggy when you say that sometimes it’s just back to normal. Often people see some truth about themselves but they later stuff it or forget about it and they remain in their bondage.
I hope that makes sense. Does it answer your question Tiggy? I really appreciate your comment and your observations. I haven’t really heard the term breakthrough used that much. Do you think this is what they mean by it at your church?
I’ve been away from the church for a while and since I’ve come back there’s all this new language and I don’t know what it means.
What is a ‘breakthrough’?
What does ‘we can see into the world of the spirit’ mean?
Please answer with examples. Thanks.
Sorry Ruth, bit of cross-posting there.
I think at my church they see it as a group thing.
Still not sure I understand. I have a-ha moments all the time. It’s not that I’m blind to something, but I just didn’t know it before. But I have those about all sorts of things. ARe you saying it’s particularly about ourselves? Like , the other day I realised that sometimes my speech patterns are quite ‘masculine’ – would that be a breakthrough? I guess it’s not of hugely major importance, just an increased awareness.
‘We see ourselves for what we really are. ‘
What are we really? I’m told I have a very high level of self-awareness, but I don’t know if that’s what you’re talking about. I’m not a great believer in masks. I like to strip away masks and I prefer not to wear one. Is that the kind of thing you mean?
Tiggy said, on September 15th, 2009 at 12:29 pm
Fishon: ‘ah, tiggy, you might miss out on something glorious.’
Yeah that’s how they sell it. ‘Okay you’ve done the Introductory course, but if you REALLY want to know God then do this course. If you want to move up a whole stage in spiritual development then this course is essential.’ It’s the Landmark Forum all over again. They have to keep you coming back for more, you see.
I have discovered something wonderful – it’s that I don’t need to play that game. And as David said, the Wimberist model of development isn’t one we all share. Nobody is more spiritually advanced than anyone else in my book – we’re all complex mixtures.
________Ok!
fishon
Tiggy said, on September 15th, 2009 at 1:19 pm
What is a ‘breakthrough’?
_____How about a “WOW” moment.
fishon
I like the idea of a ‘wow’ moment, but that’s pretty vague. I said ‘Wow’ today, but I can’t remember why. Wow can be just, ‘Wow, my church leader looks much better in the clothes he had on in Starbucks than the ones he wears on Sundays.’ or ‘Wow, that’s such a great poem.’ I know a little baby who says ‘Wow’ all t he time. It was her first word – it’s so sweet!
I don’t understand why these ordinary people in churches feel the need for a breakthrough. Is there something wrong in their lives? Are they suffering? Do they feel hugely inadequate? What’s bugging them?
Tiggy…I think fishon meant a WOW moment in relation to God. Yes, a great many people in churches are hurting one way or another and others just want more of God. They are those who are earnestly, honestly seeking the KIngdom of God. There isn’t a one of us whose lives are as they could be and we need to present our bodies daily as a living sacrifice etc. (see Romans 12;1&2). Don’t give too much weight to acheiving breakthroughs…concentrate on loving God and letting God love you.
I like you Tiggy…you want specifics and won’t settle for generalizations. I’m very much the same. I don’t want to put a pat answer on what breakthrough is but describe the aspects of it that I understand.
Yes we all do and should be having regular aha moments. Some are just bigger than others. And it’s what we do with them that counts. I don’t think it’s some big spiritual plataeu to reach or anything. It’s part of a daily walk with the Lord. But sometimes things are so deeply rooted that we just can’t see them on our own and we need the community of others and specific prayer to be free. We need God to show it to us rather than us just figuring something out.
I would say it’s particular to ourselves because it’s about how we think or view things which affect how we feel and act. It has to do with living in truth versus lies. It has to do with our inner selves. Often we’re just plain blind to it even though other people can see it. Sometimes it’s so deep that no else could know. I believe it’s more than just phsycological. There is a spiritual aspect because Satan can blind us and hold us in lies. God can bring truth and revelation.
What I mean by seeing ourselves for what we really are is that in the moment of breakthrough we see an aspect of ourselves in a different light. We come to some kind of new understanding about it. It could be sorrow about a sin, or realization about certain heart issues that rule our behavior like control, manipulation, insecurity or anger.
Yes, being self aware and genuine is a key component because it takes a posture of humility to be willing to see into ourselves.
If you want some specific examples from my life please visit my blog. I happened to post about it recently.
Ruth…what is your blog address so we can see what you have to say? I’m sure it will be great stuff!
I thought you would just be able to click on my name and find me. My blog is http://grains-of-truth.blogspot.com/
Please come visit. I’d love to have you all for a cup of tea!
Oh thanks Ruth, I will take a look. I’m not just being awkward – I get frustrated because I did actually ask our church leader what it was and he didn’t answer me. Well I did ask on Facebook and maybe he missed it. I feel so often t hat i just don’t experience things in the same way as other people.
I suppose I’m having trouble with the idea of having a realisation about ourselves and the concept of it being in relation to God. Many years ago, I had the realisation that what I experienced as depression was actually mourning but that’s just about me, not about God. Maybe my brain isn’t working very well today. Apart from obvious theological points, I don’t think I have a specific ‘in relation to God’ category. Everything is in relation to God, surely? When I see a little baby going ‘wow’ at everything, that makes me feel connected to God somehow.
TIggy Said: ” Everything is in relation to God, surely?”
I believe so too. I try not to analyze too much about what’s God and what’s me. I just trust that he is with me, showing me stuff. We’re in this together.
tiggy said::I don’t understand why these ordinary people in churches feel the need for a breakthrough.
_____What does “ordinary” have to do with wanting a breakthrough?
_____Seems as if you are having a problem with them wanting a breakthought, whatever that does or does not mean to them. Why would that bother you? \
Tiggy, for me, a wow moment [breakthrough] is when God reveals to me a truth from scripture that was there all a long, but I never saw it before—and suddenly, I get it. WOW!
fishon
What a breakthrough means to those you speak of, well, ask them.
Oops, tiggy, see you answered my last sentence
fishon
fishon….don’t you just love it when something you’ve been reading for 30 years just jumps out at you? There are days when I look at a line of scripture and wonder where it was yesterday, because today its so simply clear!
I guess I just don’t know what they’re striving for. Or why they feel a need to. I can understand if someone were in despair and maybe some of them are, but most of them go around saying how wonderful everything is all the time, which is very tedious. When I was a teenager, our vicar’s son used to talk about SWEGs (Sickly Wet Evangelical Grins)
Do you have those in Canada? Maybe you don’t manage the same degree of tension in the smile that Brits do. I usually give them a cheeky grin back or a kindly smirk, but at one time I wouldn’t have been able to smile back at all and it would have put me right off.
Now I’m wondering if they actually are in despair. I dunno w hy they put these big expectations on themselves. I find it a miracle if I manage to do the washing up or pay my rent on time -lol.
Tiggy said, on September 15th, 2009 at 4:57 pm
I guess I just don’t know what they’re striving for. Or why they feel a need to.
_____Doesn’t matter what they are striving for, does it? And we all feel different needs. That is what makes us unique.
YOU: most of them go around saying how wonderful everything is all the time, which is very tedious.
_____There are people who do live life as if everything is wonderful in their life. I feel that way. Now if they are saying everything is or should be wonderful for you or others, then they would become tedious to me. But is it everything is wonderful to them, personally, or are they talking about for everyone else?
SWEG’s in Canada—don’t know about Canada, but yep, we have-um in America, but hey, if they can go around with a grin and feeling great out their life, more power to them.
YOU: I dunno w hy they put these big expectations on themselves.
_____Why does it bother you that some else would have expectations of themself?
Besides——-God/Jesus has great expectation of us.
fishon
Tiggy…unfortunately too many people discount the every day miracles of being able to do the washing or pay the rent on time. To be able to have enough, no , more than enough food…a safe place to live…sufficient income…sufficient health…people who love us…. an opportunity to serve…these are the everyday simple blessings that we need to be grateful for. Are we too busy looking for a burning bush that we ignore a beautiful sunrise? The squirrels scurrying around to bury their treasure? Have we forgotten to go barefoot and let the grass squish between our toes? Are we looking for thunderous miracles and missing the last beautiful flowers of the season? Someone on facebook, I forget who, said they were looking for an answer to a question when they came across a penny on the ground and ” In God We Trust” screamed out to them. His Grace is sufficient. Too often we forget.
OMG – the washing! Yikes, t hanks for the reminder.
I don’t mind people smiling, Fishy, have been accused of it myself. It’s fake smiles I cant stand – when people feel they have to and make you feel you have to smile back.
I’m just trying to understand the world I inhabit. Another example is t hat people rush everywhere and can’t sit still and are always doing stuff. This puzzles and intrigues me because I have the opposite problem. So I ask w hat’s different between t hem and me – are their adrenalin levels higher for example?
From my own experience I know that too much striving can lead to breakdowns and well as breakthroughs – so I’m wary of it. Personally, I find the basics hard enough.
tiggy,
I am 62, so when someone fakes a smile at me I don’t even think about it any more. A fake smile doesn’t make me smile, so I just don’t smile. Maybe I did when I was younger, but don’t remember.
YOU:Another example is t hat people rush everywhere and can’t sit still and are always doing stuff.
_____Some of them are just different than me and it sounds like you too. They are JUST different; that adrenalin thing, you know. But then there are those who think they must always be doing stuff because it is expected of them—–I feel sorry for the bunch.
YOU:too much striving can lead to breakdowns and well as breakthroughs
____yep, that is why we need to be judicious about what we are striving for. Pick our battles, so to speak.
fishon
Thank you Fishy – you’re a calming presence.
Tiggy,
Ah, my pleasure.
I live my life in a “Calm.” It didn’t come naturally. I have trained myself over time to live that way.
Let me bore you with how I made the decision not to let other people influence how I live and react to things THAT I CAN CONTROL.
I was not alway a preacher. I worked in a lumber mill. We had a Superintendent that was a miserable, unhappy, bear of a man. Early in the morning we would get a heads up from the front office as to the mood Joe was in. It would spread around the mill like wildfire, and most of us would set our mood to the mood he was in.
One early morning, I was walking to my job and was wondering what kind of mood Joe would be in. If it was a bad mood, I would work in a bad mood all day. But this particular morning, I thought to myself, “What are you doing, Jerry? Why are you letting this miserable man ruin your day? You don’t have to set your mood to him.” It was at that moment I decided to change. It took time, but I got it done.
I have to say, becoming a guy who will not let a sour-puss influence my mood has not led me to lack empathy for those who have real trials and problems and sometimes complain. I just don’t suffer the moaners and groaners. This world is full of people who are miserable and want US to be miserable right along with them.
Oops, I had better stop——I am almost preaching.
Tiggy, I am guessing you are going to figure it out—-You have a good mind and you ask the right questions.
fishon
Thanks for this one David.
Helps me understand the guy that pastors the church I hang out at sometimes a bit better.