The very definition of desire means that it never be satisfied. Which means that the object of our desire is prohibited. Which means that desire is law, or law is desire. If we are freed from the law, then are we right to submit ourselves to another law, that is the law of desire? Some are quick to preach that if we obey the law in order to receive salvation, it will be perpetually frustrated. We will never be able to obey the whole law. Even if we break just one, then we are shut out from salvation. Either we completely give up, hopeless of ever obeying the whole law perfectly. Or we endeavor to obey every law exactly, constantly and daily striving to attain the goal of perfect obedience and even perfection itself. This is exactly the same as desire, is it not? The same can be said of passion and lust. The very definition insists that desire, passion and lust NOT be fulfilled. Otherwise desire, passion and lust ends with the achievement of its object, which is impossible.
I think this is why using language that encourages passion and desire can be misleading. It is unknowingly trying to impress us with a new law that sounds less rigorous and more gratifying. We are being invited to leap from one kind of law (legalistic) that can never be satisfied to another kind of law (sensual/ spiritual) that also can never be satisfied. Both consign us to an imprisoning circle of endless suffering because the goal, de facto, can and must not ever be obtained or realized. Can we suspect that we agree with the school of desire because, unconsciously and secretly, we in fact do NOT want to obtain the object of our desire? Is it possible that, like the children of Israel at the foot of God’s thunderous mountain, we DO NOT want to meet with God? We would rather only desire God from a comfortable distance.
The language of love rather than passion or desire ought to be emphasized. Love is something concrete that is enacted. Passion or desire is a perpetually frustrated dissatisfaction. Love, differentiated from its object, loves the object and fulfills it. I suggest that this is a better place to start from in discussing the religious life.
My name is David Hayward, and I am the nakedpastor. I am a graffiti artist on the walls of religion.
Oh, well said!
Passion or desire is a perpetually frustrated dissatisfaction.
—–Maybe for you
Love, differentiated from its object, loves the object and fulfills it.
—–Love almost alway seeks return; hence, frustration, dissatisfaction, and heartache.
fishon
fishon: you LOVE to disagree, which is fine. Let’s go: desire requires the dissatisfaction of the desire. think about it! love almost always seeks return? maybe for you.
David,
I went to my favorite dictionary and read that, whle “desire” usually emphasizes ardor and sometimes a striving for something, “passion” implies an emotion that is deeply stirring and ungovernable. Either term, however, in my opinion, is never truly erminated by securing the object in question. Give us what we want; and we just want more. In that sense, I disagree with Fishon’s rebuke of yor own definitions.
“Love”, then, genuine love, according to my Bible: “seeketh not her own”, or, in other words, does NOT “seek return”. It may desire it, but it never demands it. Once again, I dsagree with the man who “loves to disagree”.
As far as how this all interacts with God’s law and God’s grace, I’m reminded of Philip Yancey’s explanation of The Sermon on the Mount. He says it was not given to condemn us, but to convict us, that, after reading its demands, we should be left with two conclusions: (1) There is no way we can ever measure up to God’s definition of righteousness; and (2) Thank God there is hope of an assurance given through Christ, in spite of such state of affairs, of our relationship restored with the Creator.
“Perfect love”, John wrote, “casteth out all fear”. Thefre is, of course, only One who is perfect and John also writes “Herein is our love made perfect”, referring to our being able to know the Spirit through an indwelling, in Whom we mkight, from time to time, submerge ourself and become as one.
I find your post honest, stirring, and “on the money” for the most part. I thank you for continuing to “spread the table” with good things to mentally chew on. Peace, my friend…
I love very nearly everything you post but this one had me saying “hmmm, not sure what I think about that.”
I desire my husband, which is part of my love for him. They’re tied together. I can’t imagine loving him but not desiring him…both from a sexual standpoint as well from a standpoint of desiring to *know* him more. I am passionate about my husband, which is also part of my love for him. Again, I cannot imagine loving him and not being passionate about him.
Yet, I am deeply satisfied in my love relationship with him. I think desire for *material* things is meant to end in their achievement. But I’m thinking maybe that desire for a person is different? In relationship with someone, am I not both enjoying this moment and looking forward to more? Is it wrong to desire to know someone more than you know them now, to desire to enjoy them more than you know them now? Indeed, if love is in the picture, how is it possible NOT to also have strong desire?
And again, I don’t feel “perpetually frustrated” in my relationship with my husband simply because I desire him. I am deeply, deeply content.
So I guess I don’t understand wanting to separate the love language of our relationship with God from the desire language. In my experience, they seem tied together. But maybe I’m missing what you’re trying to say?
I LOVE PASSION………………
I think you’re missing an essential point. Desire is not just “unmet.” It can be “partially met.” But anything in this world, from the material to the emotional to the experiential, is finite, and so grows tiresome and old.
But God is not finite…
The way I read it, it was more of a contrast between an insatiable desire/lust and a sincere and honest love.
The desire that I love, is the passion meant never to be fulfilled. For if the resulting desire can love not to be fulfilled than a desire to cease the endeavor will remain elusive, as long as one does not desire it be legalistic.
There is no love so great as it was not intended to be desired, or fulfilled in the light of demand.
Hence, love is love, law is law, and desired only when wanted.
I guess I took this not that desire or passion are necessarily bad, just that religious discourse tends to place a lot of emphasis on them and that maybe love is a better thing to base christian discourse around. I guess part of the problem is that all three words can mean different things in different contexts.
But yeah, without love we’re nothing, right?
Compassion > Love > Passion > Desire
David,
love almost always seeks return? maybe for you.
—–So are you saying that if your wife did NOT return love to you, you would be ok with that? If your children did NOT return love to you, no problem? When you show love to your congregation, and if they show NO love in return, that is acceptable to you?
The language of love rather than passion or desire ought to be emphasized.
—–The language of love WITHOUT passion or desire would smell like a dead skunk.
In fact, the greatest act of love of all time was filled with passion and desire.
Paul writes in Eph. 5:2, “…and live a life of love, just as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us as a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God.” That drips with passion and desire.
fishon
YOU sound perpetually frustrated and dissatisfied..I am sorry
God writes the desires on our hearts..not to tease us with unreachable funny notions..but that IN Christ, our desires are attainable (one of the many perks to being His kids) and worthy to be desired!
Desires that bring joy to our hearts, and His joy becomes our strength.
and what is His Joy? Us! OUr Joy in Him..unachieveably impossible? I think not.
we didnt love first..it was a love/passion/desire/ (and yes I believe)Lust after our Hearts was the moving force behind the persuit of our freedom for us! An impossible acheivement of His? I think not.
And because of His desire for the objects of His affection
..that stirred a passion and desire in me to know this God and then I fell in love!
It is His same love=passion=desire=lust that drives us to set His people free…another impossible achievement? I think not.
I am a witness to this phenomenon..that I have found insatiable desire can be satisfied and very achieveable!
and with great passion and lust after that which is good.
What I am shocked at is this:
that people would deny themselves the same satisfaction…and trying to get others to deny it too.
Ya know, I didnt love God first..it was passion and desire that drove me to know Him and love Him..so I do not believe that passion and desire is a perpetually frustrating dissatisfaction…it led me to more!
Could it be that we dont know how to handle these powerful emotions given to us by God..so we cut it off completely (in total) for fear that it is too much freedom for ourselves and we continually seek to condemn ourselves
and attempt to condemn others and place a yoke of slavery around thier necks because we have become judges of what is love and desire and passion and good and evil??
we are being handed formulas for Christianity like prescriptions..DONT EAT IT! It’s striving bitterness…which will lead you to perpetual dissatisfaction entirley.
A couple of things. I’m not sure about the leap from desire to law and the equation between the “law (legalism)…. to another kind of law (sensual/spiritual)”
The definition of desire seems to me to that it is something that IS not fufilled (at a particular moment) but not something that CAN’T be fufilled ever. So I would have to disagree with your statement that the object of desire is prohibited. In a marriage there is hopefully always desire. A desire to know the other, to be in the presence of the other, and a desire to be intimate with the other. To different degrees that desire will be satisfied but you don’t want that desire or passion to go away. You want it to continue. I also love desire and passion in many different forms. It’s invigorating and inspiring.
I would agree that if the object of your desire is denied it can be painful and frustrating. To be in a marriage where you are denied emotional, spiritual or sexual intimacy can be tortuous but I don’t see how with even that you can leap to it being a law or having to do with law.
Legalism is defined as “strict, literal adherence to the law or to a particular code, as of religion or morality.” so it seems to me that a “law (sensual/spiritual)” that we are put under is still legalism. If we are told we are saved because we adhere to the “law”, or because we exhibit the “right stuff” (meaning manifestations or public displays of spirituality) then we are being lied to. Also, our being “good” doesn’t mean we are saved. Even if we are a good person it is not enough to get us into heaven.
I feel the word “law” has become a dirty word. It is now equated with lealism. It is true that the law condemns but only because we can’t keep it and with God’s provision (Jesus’ death on the cross) we are free from having to, but the law is given out of God’s profound love for us. He didn’t give it to us out of spite. “You can’t do this and you can’t do that.” It was given to protect us. Everytime we break the “law” there is a consequence that harms either ourselves or someone else. The law is beautiful as an act of love. Even more beautiful is Christ’s sacrifice, in order to fulfil the law for us.
I agree that great care has to be given when exhorting someone to have a passion or desire for God because sometimes this suggests that the person is lacking it in some way. I believe I have always had a passion for Jesus put there by God Himself but when I started hearing, “There must be more.” and “Pray for more passion.” I started to feel like I didn’t have enough which made me dissatisfied and frustrated with my level of desire/passion. Then when I felt this intense, painful, longing inside, I felt God was denying me what I desired which was to know Him more.
I still desire to know God but have to keep that passion in check because I think it can lead to an obsession (even depression) that would have me miss what God is really doing in my life. When it comes down to it, again, “Don’t throw the baby out with the bath water.
You asked if it were possible that we don’t really want to meet with God? For me, right now, I say bring it on! Even if it kills me!
Oh, before I go. Lust (in my opinion) has nothing to do with love. It’s about instant gratification and having one’s own needs met with total disregard for anyone else. Absolom lusted after Tamar and once his lust was satisfied he hated her.
(Bianca, I really like what you had to say. Thanks)